E31: Left Behind – Rene Koekemoer on Being a South African Parent with Kids Abroad

Jan Hugo: Welcome to the Relocated South African, the show for navigating immigration from South Africa for a better future. I’m your host, Jan Hugo, from Lagos in Portugal. We recently launched our brand new website, www.therelocatedsouthafrican.com. If you want to interact with us or comment on our discussions or even participate in an interview, please contact me on jan@therelocatedsouthafrican.com. You can subscribe on our website for our newsletter as well. Also, if you like our content, why not subscribe on your favourite platform?

My guest on the show today is Rene Koekemoer, who lives in Amanzimtoti in KwaZulu-Natal in South Africa. Welcome, Rene.

Rene Koekemoer: Thank you, Jan. It’s nice to be here.

Jan Hugo: Awesome. So you may ask why I’m speaking to somebody in Amanzimtoti again. It seems like I’m stuck in Amanzimtoti, but bearing in mind that we did the interview with Lilly Quintal who also lives in Amanzimtoti. And Rene has not emigrated, but she has two daughters who live abroad and one in South Africa, if I’m correct. Is that right? And I thought it would be a great idea to talk to a parent who’s left behind about their lives and thoughts and emotions. We always talk to the people that leave but never to the people who stay behind. So maybe to start off, Rene, if you don’t mind just sharing a little bit about your own life, where you’re from, where you grew up, how you got to Amanzimtoti.

Rene Koekemoer: Yes, Jan. I was born and raised on the East Rand in the area of Springs, Boksburg, those areas, and that’s where I eventually got married and had my kids. And then after divorce, I decided to start a brand new life. So I uprooted myself and my three daughters, moved to Amanzimtoti, and I started a brand new life. I came here, I didn’t know anybody, I didn’t have a job, and 25 years ago I bought a house and moved in and I’m still in the same property. So yes, Amanzimtoti has been quite an anchor in my life. It is now home. I started to work at Pam Golding Properties for those years and done all by tutoring the children and started to work, and I must say property has done me well as well. It’s hard work. I was joking. I said, I work like a mosquito because we never sleep. It’s 24/7 that you are on duty, but yes, lots of sacrifices, but I was able to raise the kids, to provide for them, provide a roof over their head, put them through school, put them through varsity.

Yeah, still in the same process. Now I have my eldest daughter living with me with her three little ones. I’m still in the same position. We’re carrying on. In a sense, I do think that because of her living with me and with the little ones, a big part of the void that was left, that was created when my other two kids left, is actually filled with that. So in a sense, I do believe that that makes it a little bit better. Though there are some things that you have to mentalise and work out for yourself. And there were times that you really had to dig deep into the emotions because you go through various phases when the kids leave school and they go to varsity, that empty nest syndrome that you have. So that was the first time that you encountered something like that. But fortunately, they were still in South Africa and they were easy to reach. You could go visit if you wanted to. Like holidays, they would come to visit. It was always a highlight to have the kids and they took great pleasure in always surprising me as well. So that is something that I always enjoyed of them when they came from varsity and just come and surprise Mum.

Jan Hugo: Yeah, and okay, if I can maybe just take a little step back. So you’ve got the three daughters. Is it your eldest that’s living with you?

Rene Koekemoer: That’s correct.

Jan Hugo: You say she’s got three little ones.

Rene Koekemoer: Yes.

Jan Hugo: And she’s divorced.

Rene Koekemoer: Yes.

Jan Hugo: Okay. Okay. And no plans to leave.

Rene Koekemoer: No, I think she’s quite settled with her mother now.

Jan Hugo: Okay. But I have to say, I mean, well done to you for raising three daughters on your own. And it’s not easy. Oh, my word. That’s not for sissies, putting them through school and varsity and all of that. I think that’s amazing. I didn’t know that your daughter was living with you, so I think I can hear what you’re saying is that it does fill a void.

Rene Koekemoer: But it’s never… Only one compartment is fully filled. So I have two other compartments that still need to be filled and you can only do that unless you have lots of money to go visit. They come over to visit and there’s lots of things that you must work through in the interim between the visits which might be just once a year.

Jan Hugo: So let’s talk just quickly. Maybe just to explain to the listeners that Rene is the mother-in-law of Kobus du Plooy who I spoke to about two weeks ago in New Zealand and obviously with Rene’s daughter. So just briefly from your point of view, when they got married and made this decision, where were you in that process?

Rene Koekemoer: I wouldn’t say that I was actually anywhere in the process. They are two adults, which I do trust their cognitive abilities. They’re both clinical psychologists. So they’re high-functioning people and they look at life maybe also in a different perspective than us laymen would do because they have more knowledge. They study this. So that was something that they chatted about and discussed and decided that somebody has to make the sacrifice in order for the kids to have a better life. I do understand that and I’m wholeheartedly on this side 100%, that somebody has to make that sacrifice. And yes, I do believe that they are the ones that have made the biggest sacrifice because they left not only their family but also the country that they grew up in, loved, and fought for, the country where they had so many relationships and friendships, and to just pull out the roots and go. I think it’s a huge thing, but because of the maturity, I think in a sense that has helped them in order to make their decisions.

They toyed with the idea and when they made the decision of what they were going to do and where they were going to go, that’s when they actually started to chat to the parents. So for me, I can’t tell you, no, you can’t leave me. What about me? You can never do that because it’s now their turn in order to live their lives. I’m a huge believer that the way I raised my children is that they should be the best to their abilities in the way that God has created them, and for the blessings that God has bestowed on them throughout their lifespan since they were born, that they are in a position where they can receive that, to matriculate and to go to varsity, or the sacrifices that myself as a mother did. Sometimes I thought if I look at other mums and parents, how they actually acted when the kids just went on a school tour or something, the mummies always went, which was their prerogative and it was quite a nice thing for those parents to do. At that point, I’ve just decided I have to stand back in a sense to allow them to go, develop, and to become stronger human beings.

So the day when my eyes close, I can go with the knowledge of knowing that I left a good, solid person behind. And I must tell you that has helped tremendously, even for the decisions later on in life and for the acceptance of them leaving, things like that. That was like a building block, stepping stones, small stepping stones that I had in my life that actually helped in order to get to the acceptance maybe much easier. It’s still not nice to know that your kids aren’t close and you’re lucky if you speak to them once a week.

Jan Hugo: Did they leave before your other daughter? Who left first?

Rene Koekemoer: Okay, so the youngest, she left first. She left about five or six years ago. She went to China and she started to work in China. Just after she graduated and she started to apply and she got a job and then she left. So that was my first step in order to say, well, I mean, China is far away. The time difference there between them and ourselves is six hours, so that’s still a little more manageable during the day. But they carry on with their lives, and they live their own lives, which is their prerogative. They have to establish themselves in who they are and in the direction they want to go. They have to go find themselves. But then a year and a half later, Carine and Kobus decided that they would go to New Zealand.

When they broke the news to me, I’d already had the opportunity, not a good one, but to start to work through those emotions and to know where to go with those emotions and where to direct the emotion so that it can be best for them and also for me as a human being, best for me.

Jan Hugo: I mean, you talk about the emotions because I think that is, you know, it’s such a difficult thing because as we’ve spoken, you’ve got to, you know, you also have limited time to speak to them and you don’t want to sit and break down on them on a call every time you speak to them. So you have to, I can never do that.

Rene Koekemoer: I can never do that.

Jan Hugo: Yeah, and you have to control your emotions even though you may sometimes feel, you know, especially if things aren’t going well with them. So I would imagine as a parent, and we’re a little bit in the same position with a son in America and daughter in Ireland and another one in Isle of Man, so they’re all over the place. But we’ve moved to Portugal and now I can hop on a plane, a three-hour flight, and I’m in Dublin with my grandkids and it’s much easier than sitting in South Africa. But we still, you know, I spoke about it the other day in the podcast…

Rene Koekemoer: That’s a psychological thing. The further away they are, I think it’s a psychological thing as well. Just not only the time difference, but psychologically also the amount of kilometres that they are away from here. Exactly. That might also play a role without one really noticing that.

Jan Hugo: Yeah. And you know, I spoke to another lady I interviewed over the weekend that will also go out, another lady in New Zealand, and she said her father-in-law passed away. They haven’t been there for a long time and just the cost of going back to South Africa to attend a funeral is just not doable. You know, for people to accept that, you know, there’s, I would say there’s two emotions. The one is this grief because the family is broken up and…

Rene Koekemoer: That’s terrible. That’s terrible.

Jan Hugo: The three kitties that live with you, they’re not going to see much of their cousins that are living in New Zealand. And we all have the same experience. Our grandkids, they don’t play with their cousins the way we used to because…

Rene Koekemoer: It’s a big loss. I do believe it’s a big loss because that’s part of your heritage, you know, family is your support system.

Jan Hugo: So I believe it’s a big loss. Yeah. And, you know, on the other hand, it also, I get filled with a lot of anger when I think about it. And I don’t know if that anger has come through with you, but, you know, where you feel like if South Africa was a normal society, like any other country, we could have stayed there or they could have stayed. They didn’t have to go.

Rene Koekemoer: They would still be here. Yes, true. They would still be here, but there’s just no opportunities. Absolutely no opportunities. So where do they go? They need to make a living. They want to learn. They want to apply themselves and all the sacrifices that they did in order for those degrees, we worked hard and we paid hard. So they also wanted to apply themselves because they have brilliant minds. So they want to apply themselves, but it’s such a pity because the society in South Africa could really use what they have to offer.

Jan Hugo: For sure. Very much so.

Rene Koekemoer: So it’s a big loss not only for us as a family, but also for society and for South Africa, because there is so much brain matter and grey matter that’s lost that could have been well used.

Jan Hugo: Yep. And taxed. Don’t forget the tax that they would have paid in the country. That’s now being paid in another country because they’re earning salaries over there. So yeah, those are sad things. In terms of your daughter in China, have you been able to go see her there?

Rene Koekemoer: No, we’ve spoken about it. She lives in Shanghai, so she said to me, Mum, because her and myself, more or less, are cut from the same bar of soap. She’s my clone. We’re not really people for nightlife and going to bars and clubs and pubs and stuff like that. We’re basically homebodies. If we do want to venture out, it will be into the mountains or, you know, the seaside. We actually love that. But where she is in Shanghai, it’s absolutely a first world Western society that they live in. And it’s just high-rises and she works, leaves home six o’clock in the morning and comes home at seven at night. Even if I do go there, there’s not much for me to do and I don’t want to travel all the way there and spend the most of my time somewhere else. I go there in order to visit my daughter. I want to spend time with my family. It’s the same what I say to Carine when I went to New Zealand, when she said, Mum, but we need to do this and that. We want to show you this and that. I appreciate that. But that’s not the reason why I’m here. I’m here to spend time with you.

Jan Hugo: Yeah, she’s got a degree in communications. And so obviously it was, I think, easy for her to be accepted as a teacher. And she actually does like what she’s doing. She loves working with the parents, but also not something that she would like to do forever. And she said to me, well, even if I come back to South Africa, what am I going to do? There’s just no opportunities for her here.

Rene Koekemoer: Yep.

Jan Hugo: That’s the problem is that, you know, China may not be the place where she wants to stay forever, but she’ll probably go to another country, which is also sad, but that’s what people do. It’s like I’ve spoken to people in Dubai, and they say typically people stay there for six to 10 years, and then they move to another country because they can’t get citizenship. And I’m sure China’s the same thing.

Rene Koekemoer: No, you can’t.

Jan Hugo: So yeah, people move on to other places. It really is actually kind of really sad. Can you remember when they both left and sort of going back to the day that they left, those emotions and how you dealt with that?

Rene Koekemoer: I don’t think I dealt with it actually because I suppressed a lot of the emotion and I don’t think that I actually have worked through it 100%. And now the tears are coming.

Jan Hugo: No, it’s okay.

Rene Koekemoer: Because I don’t know what to do with those emotions. You take it day by day. Fortunately, I’m busy. Unfortunately, my day is filled with the other half of the family, but it would have been nice if my kids could have been close. There are many times when we do chat, also on WhatsApp. I say, I miss you, I love you. And I get the same back when we speak to each other. We will shed a tear or two and say, Mum, don’t cry now, but then they can start to cry as well. But it’s just a normal human emotion. It is. I can’t actually tell you how I actually dealt with that. I just knew it’s here. We have to go through it, stay strong, not only for them but also for yourself, and you take it day by day and work through it as it goes. Sorry. Maybe not the most healthy psychologically in order to do it in such a way, but thus far it’s still working for me. But I can’t wait to see them though.

Jan Hugo: No, I hear you. But I think, I guess the problem with an emotion like that is that it never goes away because you speak to them, you see the kids grow up, they get bigger. And you know, Kobus, he made me a bit emotional when he was talking about, because their kids were born in New Zealand and so you saw them the first time when they were quite a while ago. So I mean, even that must have been incredibly, incredibly emotional. And he said to me, the day when he left, I think the kids had bonded with his father. And he said when he put his hand on the window and the grandfather’s on the other side, it was incredibly emotional. And he said at that point, that day, he felt really, really angry that they had to leave. And I think that’s… I think it’s his right to feel angry. He can feel angry.

I think one of the things that we’ve seen that’s come up in every conversation is obviously family support is a massive thing. I’m the exception at my age to have left South Africa. Most of the guys that are still there have kids overseas, but they didn’t follow. So I was probably fortunate enough to go, and so we left. But the first of October, we will have been out of South Africa for five years, and I haven’t been back.

Rene Koekemoer: I think it is something that one can maybe think of doing also with friends of mine that have been in the same boat, in the same position, that they did that and they moved to be closer to the kids. And then it’s not long after that, a year or two or three later, then the kids move to a different country, as you say. And then the parents are in an area where they’ve hardly made friends as yet because it’s two, three years, and then the support system that they’ve moved for is no longer there. So that is something that one has to really dissect before you make a move like that.

Jan Hugo: And also… Sorry, go ahead?

Rene Koekemoer: No, I’m just… That’s exactly the issue.

Jan Hugo: No, I’m just… That’s exactly the issue. And what we’ve seen in these discussions is South Africans go overseas, they go to Australia, New Zealand, and so on, they immediately meet up with other South Africans because there are a lot of people in the same boat. You don’t necessarily become best friends with all of them because some have different views on life, but you make friends because you have a natural connection. The problem that I’m starting to realise is that the people that stay behind are just all South Africans carrying on with their lives, but they’ve lost something. And it’s like when a parent or somebody dies, there’s a period of mourning and then life goes on.

Rene Koekemoer: Correct.

Jan Hugo: You go through all the various stages that you work through. Yeah. But when the people, you’ve lost people, but they’re still alive and they’re there and you see them, but you can’t touch them. For me, that’s almost the worst thing. You know, with the grandkids, I look at my little grandson in Ireland, you know, and we were there two weeks ago for a weekend. You know, it’s very different to a video call because you sit there, you play together, you take him for a bath, you go for a walk, go and bike with him. And it’s just that close connection which you miss. And I think that is very hard.

Rene Koekemoer: You know, it’s a big difference because it’s impersonal instead of that personal touch and that personal hug and the kisses and the plays and the crawling and things like that. That’s important for them and to build that relationship with the young ones that you miss out on. And even for them, they miss out on that as well because they don’t have a grandparent. All their grandparents are in South Africa. And it makes me even more sad to just think that I don’t know when Kobus’s parents are ever going to see the kids again. You never know if there’s going to be an opportunity soon because they are of age. And it’s not easy to travel that far. That’s around about, I would say, about 36 hours just to get from here to New Zealand. And for older people, it’s difficult to handle all of that and it’s overwhelming. It is all the travelling. So it’s hard to know that that baby, that baby boy that dealt so well with his grandfather, who knows when he’s going to see his grandfather? When he’ll be able to touch him, play with his shoelaces and stuff like that. That’s very, very sad.

Jan Hugo: Do you think in this process, as I say, we have support groups all over the world, in Australia and New Zealand? But in South Africa, I don’t get the impression that there’s anything, or that anybody’s really doing anything to help the agtergeblewenes, call it that. It sounds like a terrible word. But the people who stay behind, do you guys, do you know other people? Do you guys talk?

Rene Koekemoer: I don’t know of any support group like that, maybe because I haven’t made any effort in order to find out. There might be, but it might also be a good subject for these learned people to do a thesis on or…

Jan Hugo: That’s true.

Rene Koekemoer: …to study this because there are so many studies on everything, but especially coming from South Africa because we are such a different… We are a strong nation. We are so resilient in so many ways. But when it comes to the heart, how does it really resonate with the heart?

Jan Hugo: That’s a thing, but I would think that a church could, for instance, if you spoke to them and say why don’t we start a support group just for people to come and talk because sometimes that’s all you need is somebody to share your emotions with and to know that somebody else has the same emotions and you can support each other. Because I really do believe when this other lady kind of highlighted this to me and I just thought it makes so much sense because everybody thinks of this dream that’s out there, this new life and everybody talks about safety because safety is a massive issue and BEE and job opportunities and so on. But what about what they leave behind? So yeah, maybe there is an opportunity.

Rene Koekemoer: I know so many people in my 5km radius that experience what you call being left behind, that the kids jetted all over the world in order to go work and to make a future for themselves. And I’ve noticed also various ways of how people handle it. One of my previous colleagues or ex-colleagues, this lady went into complete total shock. Her body went into complete total shock. She just couldn’t handle the fact that the kids moved to America. And she basically from there on, she just withered away, even though she had another daughter here and a supportive husband here, but that didn’t matter. The mere fact that the boy moved away, that to her, it was just too much for her to handle.

Jan Hugo: I must say it’s kind of new, this whole thing, but it is very sad to hear, and one wishes that, you know, that it could be made easier. I guess there’s not much we can do to make it easy other than to support each other and to talk about it because…

Rene Koekemoer: Yeah, and I think your mindset is so very important. If you can stay positive and look forward to positive things, like for me, I’m going to visit them now coming January. So that is something that is a goal for me to work towards, something that you look forward to. So it’s exciting. I do believe if you have little goals set like that, that is also, I can say for myself, that is a huge help. Just to know that I’m going to see them, even if it was maybe in a year’s time, for me to know now that my things are starting to fall in place and starting to work on it and tickets are booked and things like that, that’s something to look forward to and you’re going on this adventure and you’re going to see your loved ones that are far away. I believe that something small, steps like that can also help to manage.

Jan Hugo: Because as you say, it’s always nice to be able to look forward to it. Do you guys talk to them on a regular basis? Do you have a kind of a set time?

Rene Koekemoer: Yeah, usually on a Sunday, but now I just remember I’m divorced from Carine’s father. So there are now three households that need to be accommodated for them on a Sunday evening. And before the little ones were there, it was easy because their responsibilities were less. But now with the two-year-old and the three-year-old, I mean, it’s time to feed them. They’re tired from the things that they did during the day. It’s bath time. So time is also a bit limited. So I do know that they converse with the others still on a Sunday, but now like tomorrow morning, I will now have an opportunity. We try to work through something during the week and also maybe a little bit earlier where the kids do not have to have their bath now and we are still a little bit okay to chat, not that they really communicate with you that well, but they sometimes will show you a new toy or just say, hello, Ouma, or I love you. Oh, wow. Something like that. Or to that extent. Or baai Ouma or wave a kiss or something. So, yeah, we try now to do it maybe during the week for myself. And then I know the other two households get an opportunity on a Sunday.

Jan Hugo: Okay. Okay. So obviously, we can talk for a long time, but we try and keep to a time limit. If you have to advise other parents or friends who have kids who are now considering going, what would you say to them?

Rene Koekemoer: And that’s a very difficult question because human beings differ from person to person. Every person has their own way of dealing with trauma because it is trauma. Thank goodness we are a resilient people in South Africa. That might help. I do think, however, for mums, for mothers, it might be a little bit more difficult because mothers are the carers and have been taking care of the kids all the time and they have a different kind of relationship. I’m not downplaying the father’s role because he has his own role. But the father is usually the provider. The provider. And the mum is the carer. So for me to give advice on how to handle it, it’s going to be very difficult for me to say that because I know what works for me is not going to work for the next person. Because everybody’s heartstrings are being pulled in different ways. I just know that I want the best for my children. What helps me a lot is to know that they are happy. They’re satisfied with the choices they’ve made. They’re doing well. They are excelling. They live good, healthy, safe lives. And that to me is really a major, major cornerstone for me to be more happy and to be more content with the situation.

Jan Hugo: I think that’s very, very wise. As you say, we’ve often said that one thing we can’t do is judge. You can’t judge somebody for leaving or for staying or for…

Rene Koekemoer: I would never judge them.

Jan Hugo: So nobody can judge and other people can’t judge. So we have to kind of make the best of it and ultimately just be supportive. I think that’s the most important because if the kids feel that, you know, the parents begrudge them or hate them, even though it’s difficult, or hate the thought that they’ve left and they almost make, I think it happens that they are made to feel guilty and people come back to South Africa for that reason and it messes with their lives.

Rene Koekemoer: Yeah, I will be honest with you, I did hate the choice that they made and please don’t edit this out, but I also want them to be happy. And I do know that they’ve made a huge sacrifice. All the hoops they had to jump through in order to be where they are, I actually commend them for that. But it still doesn’t make it nice or easy, even though I hate the choice that we have been put in a position that they had to make a choice like that. That is, that makes me angry. For them to have made a choice to have better lives, I’m happy that they did that. Because they know themselves. And they’re not stupid. They’ve seen the direction this country is going. And we all love South Africa. Believe me, they talk about patriotism in America. I don’t think that they know the “Boer” nation that well. We are really, very proud of our nation. We love South Africa. But for them, if they are happy and they thrive, that’s the most important. Because I could die tonight, I could die tomorrow. And they still have to sit in South Africa that’s not working for them. Just because of me, they have to stay. I can’t do that to them either.

Jan Hugo: I think that’s the thing. It’s almost… I’ve used the word selfish in a way. It’s a selfish choice for the parents and the kids to go if they have to.

Rene Koekemoer: In a sense it is. Self-centredness and selfishness. You know, you can’t do that.

Jan Hugo: But it’s selfish from the parents to expect their kids to stay because they’re still alive. And…

Rene Koekemoer: Exactly.

Jan Hugo: Fortunately, most people that I have spoken to, their parents have been very supportive of the decision to leave, even though it’s difficult.

Rene Koekemoer: It is difficult, but we do support it. We do support it.

Jan Hugo: One of the people I spoke to said, my kids don’t see their grandparents now, or they see them, but not on a regular basis. But I know I will see my grandchildren. You will see his grandkids. Because they’re living in the same country. And I guess that’s…

Rene Koekemoer: That’s a long-term view, but it’s not easy for the short term.

Jan Hugo: Somebody has to make the sacrifice and it’s our generation and our children, that generation. Those two generations have to make the sacrifice in order for the next generation to have a better life. And that’s love. I think that’s love.

Rene Koekemoer: Oh, that’s very true.

Jan Hugo: That’s unselfish love for you because I know I’ve had my turn in life. I had a good life. I still have 20 good years left, I believe, maybe more. Yeah, they have the rest of their lives ahead of them and we want them to be happy and to be safe and to be content and just thrive.

Jan Hugo: That’s a very positive note maybe to end with, to say it’s all about unconditional love ultimately.

Rene Koekemoer: Absolutely.

Jan Hugo: Thank you so much, Rene, for opening up and sharing your feelings with two kids abroad. I think you are just one of hundreds of South African parents who share in that same boat. Definitely. I really appreciate it. Thank you for coming on the show.

Rene Koekemoer: More than welcome. More than welcome to have some of my valuable time seeing that I work like a mosquito.

Jan Hugo: Well, if you enjoyed my discussion with Rene and would like to hear more about experiences of South Africans who have left South Africa or the parents who stayed behind, why not subscribe on your favourite platform. If you would like to share your own story, contact us at jan@therelocatedsouthafrican.com. Until next time.