Jan Hugo: Welcome to the Relocated South African, the show for navigating immigration from South Africa for a better future. I’m your host, Jan Hugo from Lagos in Portugal. Check out our website, www.therelocatedsouthafrican.com. It contains a whole lot of useful information and details of all episodes to date.

Jan Hugo: If you want to interact with us, comment on our discussions, or participate in an interview, contact me on jan@therelocatedsouthafrican.com. And if you like our content, why not subscribe on your favourite platform. Today I welcome from Stellenbosch, Dr. Mario Denton.

Jan Hugo: Welcome, Mario.

Dr. Mario Denton: Thanks, man. I’m ready for it.

Jan Hugo: Okay, lovely. I’m also looking forward to the session. So let me just quickly give you a bit of background on Mario. Dr. Mario Denton is a well-known South African industrial and organisational psychologist, coach, teacher, and speaker with over 30 years of experience. He is known internationally for his work in leadership development, emotional intelligence, career guidance, personal growth, and what he calls the seven life essentials: business, career, family, financial, personal, relationship, and spiritual. His motto is “born to encourage” and he runs programmes like online courses, coaching sessions, and free encourages and connect groups focused on building uplifting, resilient mindsets. So yeah, welcome, Mario. It’s awesome to have you on the show.

Jan Hugo: I recently interviewed Mario’s son, Desmond Denton, on the show. Desmond, as you may know, is a renowned filmmaker who left South Africa to live in Washington DC. In the US, he made a documentary, which is available on many platforms, including Amazon Prime and Apple TV, on immigration, in particular to the US. The documentary is called The Journey Home and features Desmond’s own kids being interviewed and talking about how they had to adapt to life in the US and how they miss South Africa. You can listen to the Desmond Denton episode at therelocatedsouthafrican.com.

Dr. Mario Denton: That’s a lot to start with.

Jan Hugo: I always ask my guests just to give us a little bit of background: where they are from, where they grew up, where they studied. Obviously in your case, you also have other children living abroad. A little bit of background, please, and also about your corporate experience.

Dr. Mario Denton: Yes, a little bit of background about my corporate experience. I’ve been a Group HR Executive, and I really enjoyed that because, once you’ve studied a master’s degree and an MA in Psychology, this was really helping me. But then one day my wife said to me, there’s a vacancy at the business school. She said, this is the time for you to move on to the business school. And then I wondered, can these business schools really pay you well? But then the professor said to me, at this business school, yes, you’re going to take a drop in salary, but if you do consulting and if you want to do some international travelling, then you’re going to enjoy it.

Dr. Mario Denton: And this was really my biggest part of seeing the world. I have lectured about nine, ten, eleven times in France and Germany, and all the English-speaking countries in Africa. And my highlight is always twelve, thirteen times in Hawaii. So this was really part of my international experience, and that kept me busy.

Dr. Mario Denton: And this is why I love talking to you on your programme. But I’m bringing into this programme maybe a slightly different style, because sitting as an industrial psychologist, I’ve done my PhD with a topic of derailment: why do people derail? And I’ve also looked at another PhD, on professional bullying. So today I want to unpack how we look at this topic from a different perspective. Yes, I’m looking forward to your questions here.

Jan Hugo: Okay, awesome. That’s very interesting. Just in terms of family, so Desmond, you have another son?

Dr. Mario Denton: Yes. My other son is from New York. They’re visiting us right now, and listen to this: if you’ve got two sons overseas and the third one is saying he wants to be in Japan, I think I’ve got a lot of experience about this topic. What to do and what not to do. And specifically, I’ve visited them already three times. They’ve been visiting us in South Africa, but the son in New York visited us for the first time and he is currently with us, because it’s his first time in seven years.

Dr. Mario Denton: So I’ve got lots of experience about how do you close the gap and how do we promote and how do we motivate them? And it was tough times, because he left South Africa and went overseas just before COVID. We missed that time together. And when Desmond was in DC during COVID time, a couple of months later, wow, that was an adjustment. So yes, I think I’ve got a lot of experience to talk about this topic.

Jan Hugo: No, you have awesome experience. I look forward to that. So if we get into the debate, let me ask you maybe a little bit of a leading question: do you think immigration is a selfish decision?

Dr. Mario Denton: You know, my first reaction was no. And let me explain to you why I’m saying no. Because if you unpack the word immigration and the question of selfish, yes or no, you’ve got to look at what I call different perspectives. How do you look at the word? And this is why you’re going to see it tonight: I’m going to do it a couple of times. Let’s just unpack this.

Dr. Mario Denton: So if you unpack immigration from, let’s call it, the spiritual intelligence perspective, these type of people start saying: who are you? Why do you exist? Where do you see yourself? What is happiness? What do you want to do in life? So these people look at the same concept and say, listen, I am on earth for a short time. Maybe it’s my time to move on to another country. And I call it the spiritual intelligence perspective: not about religion, it’s a deeper meaning.

Dr. Mario Denton: But then you do have another person who is looking from an MBA perspective, and you will hear the words: there’s a business opportunity, I see gaps. And this is why my sons, you know, it was not a case of leaving South Africa because they were unhappy, afraid, or running away. This was an MBA perspective. And you will see later I’m going to talk to you about this. Why is it that I sometimes see there’s not enough oxygen for some of our young adults? But you apply the MBA approach and there’s nothing wrong with that. Even if you are bold in the MBA approach, you can even use the Japanese technique of Ikigai. And I’ve helped my children with that: what do you love? Why are you here right now? Where do you see yourself? And if there’s a business opportunity, go for it. So you hear me, I’m just giving you two perspectives. There are lots of other perspectives also, but I think it’s a good way to start by sharing those two.

Jan Hugo: I think that’s very useful, because my question about the selfishness, and we’ll get into the family thing, is: from where does it become a thing of “I am doing this, it may be selfish relative to my parents and whoever is around me, but it is a growth opportunity and therefore I’m doing it”? So is the word selfish correct to use in that sense? But the family issue comes up in so many discussions. So it will be very interesting to hear your perspective. And I mean, if you look at it from the point of view of working with leaders and individuals, what do you see as the biggest emotional and mindset challenges that South Africans have faced now? I love the idea of the oxygen thing. What does that really involve?

Dr. Mario Denton: It’s simply saying: do we still have the same opportunities? And I know, as a psychologist, I’ve done about 2,050 Career Direct assessments. And I’m going to give you the reason for that. I look at personality, I look at interest, I look at specifically values, and I look at skills. Then as soon as I’ve done that exercise, I say, let’s talk about possibilities. What can you do with your degree or your diploma? Then I realise I’m giving them advice, but they say, Mario, I need a job. Where do I get into the workplace? How do I get into the market?

Dr. Mario Denton: So I’ve seen this with lots of assessments. When I do assessments, part of it is to say, let’s look at your international perspective. What do you see? Do you see opportunities? And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Dr. Mario Denton: And this is why I’m looking at it slightly differently, because I have done an assessment on all my sons. Even to give you another example, when Desmond, my son, said his wife is not going to be from South Africa, then I realised he’s serious in his thinking of moving overseas. She came to visit us, and one of the first things that I did, I did an assessment on her personality, on her skills, on her values. And then I realised, yes. And she said to me one day, Dad, you can fake these type of things. And I said, listen, no, no, no. I’m too long in the business. I’ve really checked your consistency. I’ve checked faking good and faking bad. They are still married today, with three lovely grandchildren.

Jan Hugo: But we have to say, for those who don’t know, she’s Russian. Is that right?

Dr. Mario Denton: Yes, that’s correct. And again, you know, we’ve got so many different world views. How do we see the world? How do we look at different people, different cultures, different perspectives? Sometimes you say, no, this person is not from South Africa, so how can you be serious? I’m saying, no, work these type of things: are there a plan for it? You are here for a reason, for a season, for a time; use it.

Jan Hugo: I love your perspective so far. Keep going, my brother.

Dr. Mario Denton: Just a couple of thoughts. So in this process of assessing people and helping them in their careers, would you say there are people who just should not emigrate?

Dr. Mario Denton: Definitely. Yes. No doubt about it. And now you’re going to say, but give me some reasons. You can look at it from a lot of reasons, but let’s look at it from an emotional intelligence perspective. This person has got a low self-image. Or maybe something happened with the person. There’s some pain in the past. There’s some unfinished business. There are disappointments. And now they realise they want to fly and they want to get overseas because this is the way forward. But I’m saying, sometimes if you’ve got a lot of problems, you fly over to another part of the world and you take those problems with you.

Dr. Mario Denton: So this is what we often call the escapist. The escapist says, well, this is my opportunity. I want to get out. And I’m saying, yeah, that’s fine. But let’s apply the reality check. In emotional intelligence, they’ve got a beautiful concept called reality testing, and this is important. Because sometimes you want to move over, so just be real. These are real cases. And is emigration for each and every one? My answer is no. I would not recommend it; I would do a decent case, a decent analysis, looking at the pros and the cons and the risk, looking at the feasibility of all these type of things, before I’m going to say yes, go for it.

Jan Hugo: Very important question. Interesting that a psychologist who deals with parents who stay behind made the point on the podcast that you must never think that leaving can fix a relationship that is not good. So it’s not going to work. If it’s not going to work in South Africa, it’s also not going to work overseas. On the other hand, conversely, if you think about what makes a person uniquely qualified to emigrate, you mentioned emotional intelligence.

Dr. Mario Denton: Yes. I personally believe that some of the reasons, if you want to go overseas, I want to come back to my first perspective: how do you see yourself? Why do you want to go overseas? And this is why you’re going to make a business case for yourself. Yes, it makes sense. It’s not only just for survival. There must be a deeper reason. Although there’s lots of stress and there are disappointments, and I call it sometimes being out of line with what’s happening in reality, that’s why people want to move over. But I’ve checked my son who’s now with me. After seven years in New York, we’ve been there three times. My role as a parent was to support him, to encourage him, to assess his emotional intelligence, to make sure that they’ve got the right friends, the right contacts. And you know, there’s a role for us to play. So I think sometimes even parents can be selfish if they want to say, no, these are my children. I want to look after them. And I’m saying, if they’re sitting in the room and there’s not enough oxygen, what are you going to do?

Jan Hugo: You kind of leave them so that they can get somewhere where they can breathe properly and have decent oxygen. So just to build on what you’re saying, there’s also the role of parents. That’s very interesting. And so many people who immigrate or are thinking about immigrating do so in seeking better opportunities, safety, quality of life. In your view, how often is that decision driven by external circumstances versus internal dissatisfaction or maybe unfulfilled potential?

Dr. Mario Denton: Definitely. And specifically, the impact of peer pressure: in other words, you are doing it because this is the in thing to do. You know what I mean? You realise, well, maybe I must also do it, or my family must also do it. Just to give you a simple example: about two days ago, I met one of my old MBA student friends. And I just asked him, tell me more about where you are right now. Where are your children? And this is typical when you ask people in South Africa these days: most of the sons and daughters are somewhere overseas. In my time, it was not the case. I’m saying, this is what’s happening. This is the real world. Get used to it. I know it’s not easy and I know we’re going to talk about it: why do I believe it’s tough and what can we do about it? But I think we need to prepare people for these realities.

Dr. Mario Denton: And do my children want to come back? There’s always a place for them. There’s a house in Pringle Bay, here close to Hermanus. They’re always welcome to visit me. We’re going to have some fantastic time. We’re going to braai boerewors, it’s not the barbecue. So there’s a place for them to join us. But I’m a type of person that says, life is in front of you. Make use of your opportunities and do the best to your ability.

Jan Hugo: Okay, very, very good. The other question that is linked to that: we talk about looking for opportunities, but we also always talk about the push and the pull. So often when people experience trauma, how does one deal with that? It’s a fact of life in South Africa that people experience that, and sometimes they just want to get out. But that may not be the right decision again. That trauma in the process of making a decision must be a very important issue.

Dr. Mario Denton: Definitely. But you know, I think the key thing, and you touch on it with trauma, is how do you cope? How do you cope with trauma? How do you cope with disappointments? How do you cope with a hijacking? How do you cope when these type of things happen? And this is crucial, because this is where I sometimes believe we need to be giving people guidance, because there are always going to be trauma. That’s the manner of life wherever you are in the world. There’s going to be disappointments. And trauma means sometimes you’re going to feel, as parents, you’re going to feel lonely. You’re going to feel sad. You’re going to feel you’re not close to your loved ones. You’re going through these difficult, different phases. So my advice is always, even depression, if you don’t check out for it, this is going to happen. So there are normal phases, from depression and anxiety to things like that: you reach a phase of questioning what life is. Is there no purpose in life anymore? A short answer to your question is, trauma is real. How do you cope with it? Get some training, and I love to talk about coping skills.

Dr. Mario Denton: It’s not easy. And let me answer the question: do you think it was easy for me? But I think the real question is, Mario, you talk about your experience, but what about your wife? And I promise you, when I talk about my wife, you will easily see tears in our eyes. But we’ve made a commitment on these things. We send our children overseas. They’ve got our go-ahead. But this is why I want to share with your audience something that we’ve done on a daily basis. We’ve decided we will pray for them: on Monday for Dwayne, on Tuesday for his wife Zani, on Wednesday for Desmond, on Thursday for his wife Vera, on Friday for my other son, Marinus, who wants to go to Japan, on Saturday for the two grandchildren, and on Sunday for the other three grandchildren. So we are still involved. This is why it’s crucial for us as parents: we need to be there. There’s a new role for us to play, definitely.

Jan Hugo: There’s definitely a new role for us to play, definitely. Okay, that’s fantastic. I must say, I think the whole faith debate comes into a lot of these decisions, and often people talk about how important their faith is. At the same time, you talked about your wife, but you also talk about a couple going across. And when the couple don’t see things the same way, the wife wants to go back because she’s missing her parents or whatever. I mean, it’s really critical that you’ve got to be on the same page when you make that move. That comes out in every discussion. And I did ask the question about the role that a parent should play. I think that’s a wonderful answer, because again, it’s for their good. It’s for their growth. I think you’re in a fortunate position that you can see them often. I’ll get to that maybe a little bit later. What about parents that cannot do that? How does one cope? And it’s probably part of this whole coping mechanism, and we know there’s a whole practice built on this of helping people cope with that.

Dr. Mario Denton: But it’s a tough one. Can we quickly answer that one? Specifically, if I’m looking at myself, we are three brothers. My other two brothers, they are in the family, they are close to each other. There’s nobody overseas. I’m the only one with two kids already overseas. So I often, when I thought about it, said, some guys, you’re very lucky. You’ve got your children close to you and you can talk, you can walk, you can go and visit them. And I know this again: there’s no doubt about it. If we look at the photos of the last six, seven years, there is a gap. We’ve missed something. But I love it when I talk to my grandchildren. And even with Vera, when they talk a little bit of Russian back to me, then I realise, they are not so young anymore that we can barely recognise them. You know what I mean?

Dr. Mario Denton: But is this the real world? Yes. I want them to be happy. I want them to know why they are there. I want them, and I check it often: to what extent can you still enjoy yourself? It is tough. There was specifically, for our grandchildren moving over to America, still lots of bullying, because they thought they were coming from Africa. And they were fighting against all these perceptions and the idea that you are one of those who’s now leaving and you are unhappy. This was the real stuff, the real battles that they didn’t expect. Because sometimes when you go overseas, you realise it’s going to be perfect, there are going to be no problems. No, the real world is you’re going to miss South Africa. You’re going to miss the country. You’re going to miss the great times together.

Jan Hugo: Absolutely. I must say, the one thing was, as you know, we’re immigrants living in Portugal. Now, kids live all over the world. What we’ve done, which I find just such a small thing but it’s amazingly useful, is we got one of these electronic photo frames that’s in our lounge. When you walk into the lounge, it comes on at six in the morning till nine at night, and it rolls through photos. You can send from your phone, so every time we have new photos, we send it to the photo frame and it just, you know, you see your kids and you see your family. It’s actually a nice way to stay in touch.

Dr. Mario Denton: But I want to build on that. You touch on the frame. One thing that I realised we must do as parents is, when it’s your grandchildren’s or your children’s birthdays, you’ve got to do something special. Now I want to share with you the way that I’m doing it, because this is something that I’ve learned. I was in Oklahoma at Character First Education. And since those days, they train you on the 49+ character qualities. So if it’s somebody’s birthday, you don’t send them a WhatsApp note saying, well, congratulations. You can phone them on WhatsApp, or you can phone them. But what you do, you do a feedback session based on character. So listen, son, this is your birthday today. Desmond or Dwayne, this is your birthday today. But when I’m thinking of you, there are the following character qualities that stand out for me. The fact that you are adaptable. The fact that you are so punctual. The fact that you are diligent and that you are working hard today. I want to honour you. I want to recognise you for your diligence, for your discernment, and for your thoroughness. Enjoy your birthday. Have a great time. But you’re reinforcing two or three character qualities versus just sending out a note. So it’s not a graduation, it’s your birthday.

Jan Hugo: That is absolutely awesome. What a wonderful idea. I must remember that. That’s really great. So just building on that part of the discussion: the fact that people emigrate, I always say that emigration has a cost, whether it’s financial, emotional, or physical. There’s a huge cost in moving to another country. Do you agree that this is a price to be paid for growth, or how do you define this price that you’re paying? If you have to sit with part of this decision being, it’s going to cost me a lot of money, emotional whatever, but what is the upside of doing that?

Dr. Mario Denton: Yeah, you’re right. There’s going to be a cost involved. But some of the cost you can actually manage: financially and all these type of things. But I think the biggest cost is the effect that you’re going to lose out on certain things in life, for relationships and spending time together. And for that, it’s difficult to put a cost to it. How much does it cost us? So the first part you can manage. But other words, there’s going to be a cost involved. It’s not always as expensive as people think. And I know, to give you a good example, now that my son is here from New York, he just keeps on comparing prices. And then I said, well, Dad is cheap here, it’s cheap here. But at the same time, when I visited Washington and I’ve done some work there, my son said to me, Dad, charge them in dollars. You know, an interesting part of the world.

Dr. Mario Denton: I’m also learning, but I know these things are costing us. In South Africa, it still depends on how we look at it. But if you’re coming from overseas, when they look at us, it’s still cheap. You can still live here. And if you ask me, and now I’m going to say something maybe a little bit controversial: Mario, if you have children now and they are ten, fifteen years old, talk to me about that. And my advice is slightly different these days. I’m saying, to be in South Africa, to have children going to schools, it’s not the same anymore. And it’s definitely not going to be the same as in our time. But if you want to come back to South Africa and stay in a Pringle Bay holiday house, enjoy it, and you’re not part of the politics, you enjoy your rugby, I think it’s a great time to be back. So even for people moving overseas, working for ten, fifteen, twenty years, and then still retiring one day and having a great time at a holiday house or a place somewhere by the ocean, I think that’s a fantastic opportunity.

Jan Hugo: I think it’s a great idea. Yeah, and I’ve spoken to people: a young family lived in Ireland for nine years, got Irish passports, the kids were born there, and now they live back in the Cape and they’re very happy. They continue working for their overseas company, earning euros and living in Cape Town. That’s not a bad result, I must say.

Dr. Mario Denton: Definitely not.

Jan Hugo: But now, we talked about this cost, and I know you have a different approach, but I think there are families where the parents almost build their lives around their children and their grandchildren. And then they leave. And I’ve heard this now from a number of people in New Zealand, for instance, that it’s really far away, that it’s not that easy to visit, people get older, and so on. And I mean, that’s a really tough one to deal with: almost the thought, as a parent or grandparent, that I’m not going to see my kids or my grandchildren other than on a screen. How does one cope with that loss?

Dr. Mario Denton: That’s a tough one, because it’s real. It’s absolutely real. As you’re getting older, you realise the time for you to fly overseas and visit the children is not the same anymore. My point is, and it’s coming back and it’s not an easy thing, but if you don’t make peace with it, who’s going to be the unhappy person? Your family’s going overseas, your children are overseas, you’re sitting in South Africa. You are lonely. You’re miserable. And this is why it’s coming back to: what is your role on earth? What is your purpose on earth? So although the children are overseas and you don’t see them as often, don’t let that loneliness get into you. And now they’ve gone, I’m not important anymore, and they don’t phone me like in the past. I know what’s going to happen. And depression is real. As a psychologist, I see this. And the good advice is, you can’t just say, well, start drinking some medicine, go on tablets. It’s such an issue that personally you’re going to work through it, and you’re going to adjust.

Dr. Mario Denton: And this is why I want to use another concept in positive psychology. They’ve got words for these types of things, it’s like sabotage: they’re attacking you day in and day out. There is a fight taking place. You’re not good enough because your children have left you and now you’re sitting here alone. So you’ve got two choices. Are you going to listen to these voices who are attacking you all the time? Or are you going to say, no, I love them. I appreciate them. They’re going to do a good job. They’re not going to disappoint me. I’m praying for them. I’m standing in the gap for them. I’m enjoying them. So every time, what I’m saying is the self-talk, the declaration. For those people who’ve got loved ones overseas and they don’t see them often, that’s the way to do it. As long as you can keep yourself busy, otherwise you’re going to go crazy.

Jan Hugo: Yeah, absolutely. And what do you think of the concept of sharing? People that are lonely, because there are so many parents in the same boat, seeking out other people who are going through the same and kind of experiencing a similar trauma. Does it help to share, to be with other people?

Dr. Mario Denton: Absolutely. It’s crucial. And you know, when you share, and this is something that I want to just quickly highlight, there are three levels of sharing. And let me explain this, because I often see this. Sometimes people share, but the first one is the zone of comfortable discussion: how are you, are you coping? Yes, thank you very much, I’m missing my loved ones. They’re talking in the zone of comfortable discussions. The next level is what we call the zone of uncomfortable discussion. You say, well, listen, I’m feeling sad, I’m missing the children. Now you can see the tone is different.

Dr. Mario Denton: And then the third level is what we call the zone of crisis: I cannot take this anymore. I’ve got to do something. I am seriously in need. So that’s where you’re really helping out. So when you’ve got a small group of people, I call it your inner circle, it’s a non-negotiable. But don’t talk only at the first level of conversation. Go into the deeper levels. Be a little bit vulnerable. I know, between myself and my wife, my wife is very vulnerable. As I explained to you, when she talks to other couples and other people and they ask about her children, she will often cry. But I told her that’s a good sign, because something is still working. I would not be happy if you didn’t even cry. I would not want you to not worry about the children, to just get used to it, and say, well, this is the way life is all about.

Jan Hugo: So you also know that groups are a brilliant idea. Talk to your inner circle, be a little bit vulnerable, tell how you feel, share your feelings. There’s nothing wrong with that. Good idea. Excellent, excellent. So obviously, with everything that’s happening in South Africa: economic, crime, and you can carry on the whole night talking about stuff that’s not good. But if you have to talk to people and give them a balanced message about South Africa in 2026, people that are thinking about emigrating, what would that be? Emigrate and come back? Or would it depend on the person?

Dr. Mario Denton: In my case, I love storytelling. So let me go back and share a story with you. When I left school, I was for eighteen months doing compulsory military service, and I was spoiled in South Africa going to university. In those days there was only one black student, and we looked after him because we realised, if he’s going to fail, this is not going to look good for our university. This was how my life started. Then at one stage in 1994, I realised life is going to change. They asked me to do a project to help with training ANC members coming back to South Africa. So they asked me to get involved in this project. And the reason why I’m sharing the story is to say, well, listen, this is what’s happening.

Dr. Mario Denton: Those days, they interviewed me and said, for which university are you coming from? And then I said, but if I’m going to tell them the university in Afrikaans, they’re going to look at me and say, no, you are from the apartheid regime. And then I said to them, I studied at US. US is Universiteit Stellenbosch, but US sounds very American. And so I’ve done a project for them. And I suddenly realised, hey, this is new. And then during my MBA students years, there were lots of students across the world visiting South Africa. I said to them, listen, I’m not going to take you to Constantia. I’m not going to take you to Stellenbosch. I’m going to take you to District Six. I’m going to take you to Robben Island. I want to give you the real picture. And one day I said to them, we’re going to even eat a smiley. Now, I know a lot of people say, what is a smiley, Mario, but you will find this only in certain places.

Dr. Mario Denton: And the reason why I’m saying this: what happened in the last ten, fifteen, twenty years? My professor said to me, asked me one day, are we going to see a change in government since the ANC has been in charge? And he said to me, not in your lifetime. Then thirty years later, last year with the previous election, the ANC dropped below fifty per cent. It’s amazing how these type of things happen. So I am a type of person, if you ask me what do you see for the future, do you see some changes? I don’t like the political games and the way we’re treating corruption and all this stuff. But it’s like one German student said to me, at least not everything is working in South Africa. So there must be lots of opportunities.

Dr. Mario Denton: And I fully agreed with him, because not everything is working. And one person said to me, at a conference one day, you guys are lucky. And I said, why? He said, in the old days you got all the jobs, but now you are entrepreneurs. And this is why I keep on telling people, get some skills. Don’t wait for the universities. There are opportunities for us in South Africa. But if you put your CV together and you circulate it, and you’ve got a great opportunity in other places in the world, enjoy it. Go for it. Do your risk analysis. If you realise this is your chance, I’m giving you advice: investigate, play on. Go for it. Don’t miss it.

Jan Hugo: Yeah. And I guess in a sense, people who will make it overseas will make it big in South Africa as well. So it’s very skilled people. South Africans are hardworking. They are highly sought after. And so that’s the other question. Now you’re getting confronted with a client or somebody who comes to you and says, I’ve got all these skills, I’ve got a wonderful CV, I can go overseas, but I can also build a business and employ a lot of people and create something in South Africa. How does one answer that question?

Dr. Mario Denton: Should you go and look and then come back? Or should you rather try and make it where you are? I personally believe in both options. I think it’s great to be creative, great to investigate, great to see what’s available. But don’t wait until you’re fifty, sixty years old and then decide you want to leave overseas. Even my family said one day, are you going to join your grandchildren? And I said, no. Are you going to join your children? I said, no.

Dr. Mario Denton: This was not something that I, and at one stage I want to give you just the idea: at one stage I thought I’m going to go overseas and permanently go and lecture there. And I worked out a decent plan. And I thought the next morning I said to my wife, we’re going to go overseas and this is what’s going to happen. My wife said, well, you can go. I’m not interested. And I said, that’s unfair, this is a business plan. Then I realised it’s not about you, Mario. And I realised, analysing it these days, I was a little bit selfish. It’s about me. I want to go overseas. But once you are married, and we are married, we are forty-six years married, and I’m always saying it’s my first wife, it’s my traditional wife, it’s my African wife, so we are in a covenant agreement. We are together. But then I realised there was a need for me to lecture overseas, and I’ve been overseas lecturing: five weeks in Michigan, you name it, lots of these examples. So that was really satisfying.

Dr. Mario Denton: And not necessarily to go permanently, but even if those days they said, listen, what about a two-year contract? I would strongly recommend it to people today. Go for it. Even today, earlier this morning, there was a guy here, three months on a project in the Netherlands. And he said, Mario, I want to know if I need to go back. And I said, investigate, go for the opportunities. So yeah, I’m still a businessman. I’m looking for opportunities. But you must enjoy it crucially.

Jan Hugo: I think that was one of the interesting things that came out of my discussion with Desmond as well: whilst the opportunities for filmmaking are in America, he’s very positive about the opportunities in South Africa and the movies that can be made here. So it’s great to go and skill up and then maybe come back and build something. So if I hear you correctly, you are still hopeful for the future of South Africa. It’s not a matter of when you say to somebody, go and explore and go and look at opportunities, it’s not because you’re negative about South Africa, and in your own kids’ case as well.

Dr. Mario Denton: Yeah, you see, to me, it’s first of all, and I know this is part of my training: I’m looking from a business case perspective, and I’m saying, does it make sense? Let’s look into it. Does it make sense? Yes. Then I would like to say, let’s look at the way you’re going to do it. And then I would like to analyse them. What are the reasons for that? Give me some reasons. Give me a business case. Give me a proposal. Put it on the table. Are you going to make money? Are you going to settle down? And all these type of things. And then I’m saying, fine, if you don’t put forward a proper, decent case, then I’m saying, stay where you are. Because you certainly don’t want to realise and miss out on opportunities. But then you realise this is something not for you. You’ve got to make peace with that. And this is it, accepted. Just to keep on moaning and moaning and moaning. And what I just, I think I’ve got a note here I want to share with you. I’ve done some summary research on this: it was the topic of why do people often want to leave?

Dr. Mario Denton: And let me just share with you. It’s amazing: why are certain people engaged in South Africa, wanting to stay here, and why are they disengaged? How do you move from fully engaged to disengaged? The first one is there’s a disappointment. Now, if there is a disappointment: a hijacking, or a trauma, or bad decisions from the government, if you don’t fix that disappointment, the next phase is discouragement. Now you’re moving into the next phase. You’re discouraged about the school system, discouraged about this and that. Once you have not fixed that, you move into distance. Distance means there is a gap between me and the rest of the people, and the environment, and my colleagues. Then you move on to the next phase: you disconnect. You don’t even braai together, you don’t have functions together. And I’ve noticed it with people who are even in America, still from South Africa, who want to come back. But they’ve never connected. So disconnect is a real thing. After disconnect, there’s discord. And then finally you reach the phase of disengagement.

Dr. Mario Denton: But the point here that I want to raise: if people are disappointed, check the reasons. What can we do about it? And if you don’t stop it, it’s going to flow to discouragement, distance, disconnect, discord, and finally disengagement. And then you realise there’s no place for me here in South Africa.

Jan Hugo: Well, I think that is just so amazing. I’ve never thought about it like that. But I mean, the question: we’re getting towards the end, and if people are now, and a lot of our listeners are still in South Africa thinking about immigration, not everyone has emigrated, but in making that decision and making the right decision, I think what I’m hearing is that you’ve really got to understand the reasons. And I guess people like yourself can guide people. I spoke to somebody last night just as an anecdote, who was in Canada and I will interview him. He said they took seven years before they actually left, because they were talking to mentors and people and working out what’s best for them. And he’s an actuary, so they analyse things to the nth degree. So I think that’s fantastic to know. And so maybe the question is: should you seek guidance in this process and not rely only on yourself?

Dr. Mario Denton: Yeah, just the word guidance. It depends who you ask, and that’s crucial. And it depends if you’re going to only ask one person. So my advice is, I would rather, and I want to use my own example. When people approach me and they say, well, listen, Mario, who are you? Are you a psychologist? Well, as soon as you call me a psychologist, maybe people are going to say there’s something wrong with you. Are you a business consultant? I said, at the end of the day, I like to use the word: I’m a mentor, a coach, and I want to guide you. But the way that I’m going to guide you, I’m going to look at it from different angles, and we’re going to make a decent business case for you to know.

Dr. Mario Denton: But then I do something powerful. I explain to them: you are the Chief Executive of your own life. Yes, I can guide you, but you’re going to get in the plane. You’re going to tell the pilot where you want to go. So if those people take ownership, that’s far more easier. But sometimes they don’t take ownership. Somebody else is giving them advice, and that’s sometimes dangerous, because if that advice is not working out, they blame the person. I’m saying, no, you are the CEO of your own life. You want to make a success of it. So in all my cases, my three sons: we were crying those days and we were saying, well, listen, at the end of the day, you are the CEO of your own life. Go for it, make a difference, enjoy it. And I used the word: you’ve got our blessings. Blessing means you speak life over them.

Dr. Mario Denton: And speaking life means it’s possible. Some people say, well, you’re not going to enjoy it. You think you’re going to miss us. Are you definitely going to miss us? No, speak life over these guys. And yeah, that’s just crucial.

Jan Hugo: I think that is just fantastic. And just to add to what you’re saying: if somebody came to me and said, should I leave and should I go and live in Portugal, I’ll say, yeah, probably you should, because I like it. It works for me, but it works for me. It may not work for you. I’m a different person. My kids live in Europe. I’m close to my kids. That’s why I live here. But the other side also is, and this is where you say it’s crucial we speak to the right people, is that the cost of making a mistake in this game is quite big. Paul Harris, in the interview that I had with him, said failed immigration takes five years out of your life. And for a younger person, for any person, five years is a long time to restart. And so it is important that you speak to the right people when you make these calls.

Dr. Mario Denton: Absolutely right. No, that’s so true. And I want to use my example. It’s like flying from Johannesburg to New York. If your GPS is out by one degree, and one degree means that over a long-distance flight it’s going to go bigger and bigger and bigger. So if your immigration flight, or alignment, if I can use that example, is already out by two, three, or four degrees, where are you going to end up? So it’s got to be crucial when you fly. And then also when you fly, there’s going to be disturbances. And the reason for disturbances is that things are not going to work out, but you know, as you keep on flying and there’s some turbulence in the air, they’re not going to take the plane down. They just say, well, listen, you’re not going to get any drinks and coffee, but it’s your time to do a readjustment. So I’m coming back to my point of view: when you send somebody overseas, train them properly, give them life skills, give them goal-setting, real life.

Jan Hugo: Yeah, those are crucial things. Awesome, awesome. That is just so much to take out of this conversation. I think we’re getting to the end, Mario. Any other final thoughts that we may not have covered in the discussion?

Dr. Mario Denton: Yeah, you know, I’ve got a note here: if you are living overseas and you think the grass is greener on the other side, be careful about all these type of things. Even if you feel, hey, my friends are going overseas, this is the in thing to do, I personally believe that one of the biggest things is your human hardware. Make sure that you know who you are. You know why you exist. You know where you’re going. You know why you’re on earth, for a purpose. And I want to close by saying: double-check your calling, your purpose, and your destiny. So if you are clear on your calling, your purpose, and your destiny, it doesn’t matter where you are. You can be in Malawi, you can be in Zimbabwe, but if that’s where you need to be, your calling, your purpose, and your destiny are aligned.

Dr. Mario Denton: I don’t want to be in a position where I say, please don’t go, because I’m going to miss you. And I’m saying, no, I think it’s selfish. But your calling, and these are my closing words: make sure that your calling, your purpose, and your destiny are aligned, because that’s why you’re on earth for a reason. It’s not easy, because I know a lot of people struggle with those concepts, but you can help people to make sure about those three words.

Jan Hugo: Fantastic. Wow. Thank you so much, Mario. I must say, I love hearing your views, and I can continue talking to you for a long time. But I really enjoyed that. If people want to contact you, I know you’ve got a website and YouTube. Maybe if you can give us those contact details.

Dr. Mario Denton: Yeah, it’s easy. They can just search for Dr. Mario Denton and they will find it. I can forward you the details. If you search for it, you will find the things that we’re doing. And I’m excited to help people, to assist them, and give them a slightly different perspective. But as I explained to you, I like to measure things. I’m also a bit like a medical doctor, because sometimes we’ve got cataracts over our eyes. And it’s not cataracts, it’s the stuff that you don’t see: the opportunities. And even if you do have what I call these managerial cataracts, you don’t see the opportunities. Make sure that you see it right. Make sure that you open up and you see the opportunities, and they’re welcome to contact me. They just search for Mario Denton.

Dr. Mario Denton: I just want to add something. When I was lecturing in Kenya, these guys called me Dr. Busara, because they said, you’ve got wisdom. And I said, okay, right, I will accept that name. Then I was in Ghana and in Ghana they said, you are still the young one. And they said, listen, we’re going to give you a name. Then I’ve done some lecturing in Botswana. They called me Ntwadumela. And I said, what is the meaning of that? They said, you are the one who brings fire. So I’m saying, it doesn’t matter where you are in life, you can make a difference. So for all those people overseas who have immigrated: hey, I know you miss Africa. It’s not always easy. You miss your loved ones.

Dr. Mario Denton: But keep on playing your rightful role. You ain’t seen nothing yet. The best is still in front of us.

Jan Hugo: Oh, awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. I will also put your contact details on the show notes when the episode goes out. So I really thank you, Mario. Thanks for sharing and making time for us. If you enjoyed my discussion with Mario and would like to hear more about the experiences of South Africans who have left South Africa, why not subscribe on your favourite platform? If you would like to share your own story, contact us on jan@therelocatedsouthafrican.com. Until next time.

This transcript was generated with the assistance of AI technology and has been reviewed for accuracy.