Jan Hugo: Welcome to The Relocated South African, the show for navigating immigration from South Africa for a better future. I’m your host, Jan Hugo, from Lagos in Portugal. Check out our website, www.therelocatedsouthafrican.com. It contains a whole lot of information and details of episodes to date. If you want to interact with us or comment on our discussions or even participate in an interview, contact me at jan@therelocatedsouthafrican.com. And if you like our content, why not subscribe on your favourite platform.
Today I welcome from London, Ontario in Canada, Justinus Adriaanse. Welcome, Justinus.
Justinus Adriaanse: Thanks, Jan. Looking forward to chatting and exploring the journey of relocating as a South African.
Jan Hugo: I had a look at where London, Ontario is, and it’s actually pretty close to America. It’s near Chicago.
Justinus Adriaanse: I was amazed. Actually very close to Detroit. It’s about halfway between Toronto and Detroit. So it’s almost slab bang in the middle. It’s two hours’ drive to Toronto and two hours’ drive to Detroit.
Jan Hugo: Wow, that’s amazing. Anyway, let me just tell the listeners who Justinus Adriaanse is. He’s a South African born serial entrepreneur and tech visionary. Based in Canada, he’s best known as co-founder of WeThinkCode_, which was launched in 2015 and it’s Africa’s first tuition-free peer-to-peer coding academy that trains underserved youth for tech careers, addressing South Africa’s massive skills gap head-on.
Before that, he was CEO of Private Property, turning it around during tough times before stepping down in 2012. He’s an EO, Entrepreneurs’ Organisation, Canada Bridge Member and past president, if I’m not mistaken, and owner of a number of Tommy Gun’s Original Barbershop franchises in Canada. He’s also a ski fanatic. And as a non-Blue Bulls fan, he’s a die-hard Blue Bulls fan and rugby supporter. And he recently started a podcast as well with ex-Springbok rugby player Flip van der Merwe playing at the Winning the Away Game. It really is worth a listen.
That’s some of Justinus, and I’m sure I did not even cover a small portion of what you’ve done and we’ll get into some of that and the work and the charitable stuff that you do. But I always start a podcast with a bit of background. So for the listeners who don’t know you, please tell us your early history: where were you born, go to school, and how did you get to Canada?
Justinus Adriaanse: That’s a great question, thanks Jan. Yeah, I was born in Pretoria East in 1978 and really had everything I needed to get a start in life. We were sort of a pretty middle-of-the-road, middle-class family. I went to school in Pretoria East to a primary school called Laerskool Skuilkrans and went to high school there as well, Hoërskool Willgers, and really just had a fantastic time.
We used to say, talking about being a Blue Bull supporter, we used to say in Pretoria it’s every boy’s dream to be a Blue Bull, and I’ve lived through some lean years and luckily enough I’ve lived through some absolutely amazing years as a Blue Bull supporter. And that love for rugby really just came from that. My dad had five season tickets, so our family outing every weekend was going to Loftus and watching the Bulls play.
We would play at school in the morning, go to Loftus in the afternoon, watch the game, then drive home and watch the game again, which we recorded on a VHS cassette. And that was our routine. And we always did it as a family. So for me, rugby has always been a family affair, something that we do together and that sort of nostalgic bonding experience of growing up on the main stand at Loftus and watching my heroes play every Saturday.
After school, went to Tukkies, got a little bit restless and bought the first business, got involved in the first business with Private Property and spent 10 to 12 years building that business. Moved around quite a lot: moved to Cape Town, moved to Durban, moved back to Pretoria, and really just had a fantastic time building a technology business.
But when I decided to leave in 2012, I literally said to my wife, we were actually in Europe skiing for a week after I decided to leave. And while we were in the Three Valleys in France, I said to her, you know, I’ve always really wanted to go live in a ski town for a winter and just ski every day and really learn how to ski properly, because obviously in South Africa that’s very hard to do seeing we have almost no snow. And the kids were four and two at the time and she was crazy enough to agree to try it out.
We literally went to, what happened next is I Googled ski instructor courses on my iPad and the first result I got was a UK-based company operating in a ski resort in British Columbia in Canada. And I mean, before that point, if you had ever asked me if I would move to Canada, I probably would have said it’s completely out of my frame of reference. I haven’t even ever considered it. And literally just because of that Google result, I said, well, let’s check it out.
And we did some research. We went to Fernie, the small town in British Columbia, and it was just absolutely magical. We ended up going there for one season, skied every day, got 15 metres of snow that season, learned to ski in powder, learned to ski backcountry, learned to ski in trees and just had an absolute blast. And at the end of the first year I said to her, well, why don’t we do it again next year? Which we did. And at the end of the second year I said to her, well, yes, I’ve really had such a good time. Why don’t we move to Canada for five years? I want to see if I can start a new business in a new country and what it would be like.
Here we are ten years and three businesses later and we’re still here.
Jan Hugo: Wow, that’s amazing. I wish I’d learned to ski. I wouldn’t have had an ACL torn on the last day in Val-d’Isère, like most other Africans. But yeah, and you’re still a very proficient skier, I assume.
Justinus Adriaanse: I love skiing. It’s just, you know what it is, and I had an amazing interview this week with two South African legends Rob Lowe and Sean Thompson and the way they spoke about surfing is really how I feel about skiing as well. It’s such an engaging activity that I find it takes my mind completely off whatever I might be thinking on, because while you’re skiing you can’t be thinking of anything else. Your mind has to be completely focused on what’s in front of you. So it forces me to take a break from everything else. And that’s part of the reasons I love it. And then the adrenaline and the excitement and everything else that goes with it. Absolutely awesome.
Jan Hugo: I have to ask this question. What is this thing with Nando’s?
Justinus Adriaanse: So, I mean, for a long time in South Africa, we used to go to Nando’s every Friday night. We lived in, well, we’ve been married now for 26 years and we’ve moved 25 times. And that includes the five years we’ve lived in the same place in London now. So when we moved here, it was actually 25 moves and 21 years of being married.
And everywhere we moved in South Africa, we always had a local Nando’s that we could go to. And we sort of obviously took it for granted. And then when I moved to Canada, when we had in Fernie the first time, lucky enough, Nando’s was in Canada, but the closest Nando’s was three hours away. And I think that just sort of my love for South Africa and my love for Nando’s just exponentially grew as I got further away from it.
So Nando’s became a way to really connect back to South Africa and find it anywhere in the world. So it became the symbol. I mean I’ve always loved the food, but more than that now it’s become the symbol of South Africa, of South African success abroad and about this opportunity to always connect back home. Every time I walk into a Nando’s it feels a little bit like home.
Jan Hugo: Yeah, a little bit like home. Yeah, it’s amazing. I must say, you know, Nando’s, Robbie Brozin was a client of ours when I was in R&B and that’s a wonderful success story. Living in Portugal though, I think Robbie Brozin and his mates can teach the Portuguese about proper peri-peri chicken because we always have to ask for the peri-peri sauce. We love the chicken here, but they just don’t make it as hot as Nando’s, so yeah.
Justinus Adriaanse: I mean, Robbie is an absolutely amazing human being. When we started WeThinkCode_, one of the first sponsors we got was Nando’s. I mean they’re not even a tech company, they just said they wanted to be part of it and they sponsored a student. And I mean I’ve reached out to him a couple of times since, completely cold, and he’s always embraced and had conversations and engaged. So yeah, he’s a shining example of somebody who’s done so much in building an enterprise that impacts so many people.
And then beyond that, he’s done so much to try and help South Africa and specifically Johannesburg. The Jozi My Jozi stuff he’s working on is phenomenal. I think he’s a shining example of what it is to be an amazing South African and to plough back and do good in the country.
Jan Hugo: Yeah, he’s a great guy, I agree. You touched on your discussion with your wife and so on. In a lot of the discussions we have, it’s very clear that when you immigrate, you and your wife have to be on the same page. Because for a long time in that process, it’s just you and her. And sometimes one is up and one is down. And honestly, if you’re not on the same page, it’s going to be a disaster. Would you agree with that statement?
Justinus Adriaanse: Man, I couldn’t agree more. My wife’s been an absolute trooper. I mean as I said, we’ve moved 25 times in the 26 years that we’ve been married. My wife says anytime I walk into the house and say, oh, you know what, I’ve been thinking, then she starts to pack. She starts packing the bags because she knows something is coming.
And I’ve only really, I think twice I suggested we move and she said no out of, so I’m like, I’m 25 or 27 attempts in moving. But yeah, I think being on the same page is key. And I do think that part of that is that both your dreams and your expectations and your reality changes over time as well. Like when we decided to come to Canada, the idea was to come for five years, try and build a business, get Canadian citizenship and then reassess.
Exactly on the end of November of 2019 we submitted our application for citizenship and obviously in March of 2020 COVID hit. So for about two, three years it was complete chaos. As a result of COVID our citizenship application took a very long time to process. We eventually got that and I think then we realised the kids were sort of halfway through high school and we wanted to give them the stability of finishing high school in the same place.
Now my son is in Grade 12, so he’s got just about six months left of high school. He’s busy applying for universities and my daughter has got two and a half years left. I think for us the next step now is that we probably don’t, I don’t think we’ll physically move anywhere again but we will love to spend time in many places including a few months every year in South Africa, especially summer in Canada is mind-blowing, be in a ski resort and like not be anchored to a specific single place. It’s really the way I see our future and luckily my wife’s on board to that. So very excited for that journey. That’s ahead of us in the next few years.
Jan Hugo: That’s awesome. And did the kids adapt very well? I mean, coming into English school system and so on, or were they in English schools in South Africa?
Justinus Adriaanse: That’s a great question and kids are absolutely amazing. So the first time we came just for the winter, the kids were four and two years old. So we actually brought the nanny with us from South Africa and the kids just had the absolutely most amazing time with her. She did a great job. By the time we moved here permanently in 2015, my son was six. He was turning seven that December.
He had already done six months of Grade 1 in South Africa, in Tygerpoort in Pretoria, obviously Afrikaans school. He couldn’t speak a single word of English when he started Grade 2 here in September. And by December when we went to visit our friends in Vernon, he was absolutely fluent in English. So the kids were just super adaptable and they’ve done an amazing job integrating here and working hard. But they’re still so connected to South Africa.
My son wears some Springbok clothing like three or four times a week. Like he’s got a jersey like this and other jerseys and a hoodie. And every time we go to South Africa, because part of the compromise or the negotiation with my wife when we decided to come permanently was that we have to go back to South Africa for at least a month every year, and we’ve done that except for the COVID years, we’ve done that every year.
So every time we’re in South Africa my son just wants another Springbok jersey or a Springbok hoodie or something and it’s a big part of the identity. So they’ve really built an identity that is both South African and Canadian and they fully embrace their context and have done really well in integrating.
Jan Hugo: Well, that’s awesome. It’s amazing. I mentioned to you this form called The Journey Home where they interview some of the kids in America. And it’s, you know, where some of these youngsters were talking about that it’s, you know, the one little girl was saying she misses even a toothbrush almost, you know, it’s like, but they are so adaptable. So that’s awesome. And you did say you go back a lot. You still have a lot of family in South Africa.
Justinus Adriaanse: Yeah, I’ve got, my brother is actually in the US in Florida, in West Palm Beach. But my sister and my mother and all the extended family is still in Pretoria, and it’s the same for my wife. So her family is in the Lowveld and her brothers and her parents. So yeah, lots of family, lots of connections.
It’s funny because what I find is there’s really two things that strongly connect South Africans to South Africa when they’re abroad. The one is family and the other one is the Springboks. I’ve spoken out to many people who’ve relocated, especially this one couple in the Netherlands. And the guy said to me, you know, my wife never used to watch the rugby when we lived in South Africa. Now that we live abroad, she forces me to watch the games because it’s the connection we have back to South Africa.
And there was actually a fascinating interview with Rolf Botha that Tim Ferriss did a while ago, a podcast, and Rolf said the same thing. He said the rugby just became such an easy way for him to connect with his brothers and his family because every time they would have a conversation, if he was up to date with the rugby, it was so easy to have conversation with his dad and his brother. And it’s been exactly the same for us.
Like I mean 2019 when they were playing in Japan, the games were like at two and three o’clock in the morning and I mean we were up and shouting. The one time we were actually on a squash tournament in Vancouver in the hotel and we were screaming so loud I’m sure we woke up the neighbours at two o’clock in the morning watching the rugby.
Jan Hugo: That is absolutely amazing. Again, I’m talking about this movie, The Journey Home, and I read this on your LinkedIn where you wrote about people who said that they feel more South African now that they live abroad than they did in South Africa. Why do you think that is? Is it the rugby or are there other reasons?
Justinus Adriaanse: I think there’s many reasons and it was yesterday we recorded a podcast episode with Robin Kernow and she’s the one who made the comment and we talked about it for a little while and what she said I think resonated well with me. She said, you know, when you’re in South Africa and you’re on the inside, you take all of these things for granted because it’s your context and you live with it every day. And then you have all of these internal conflicts that sort of become obvious between you and people around you.
But when you stand on the outside, one, you don’t take those things for granted because it’s not in your context anymore. And the internal struggle seems to fade away. And you think about South Africa as this holistic thing that just changes the way you associate with it.
Like, we definitely did that as well. We were very deliberate about speaking Afrikaans at home. We were very deliberate about going back. We were very deliberate about eating together every day, wherever possible. A lot of the things we’ve decided to make part of our reality become also a connection back to South Africa.
So yeah, I think those are some of the things that sometimes make you feel almost more South African when you go abroad than when you live it up. Or it’s just not obvious when you’re in that context. It becomes more of a conscious choice when you leave, because you have to then choose to do a bunch of things. In South Africa, it’s not a choice. It’s just the way things are.
Jan Hugo: Yeah, I agree. I think that is absolutely amazing. Just moving on, you obviously do what I would call charitable work with the business that you started and teaching people about coding. You’re doing it from Canada. Do you think it’s easy to do it like that, or would it be better to do it in South Africa?
Justinus Adriaanse: That’s a great question. I mean, there’s definitely pros and cons to both sides. Being on the ground in South Africa would have its advantages. But you know what? I’ve actually just almost finished this book called Who Not How? And one of the things he talks a lot about in the book is, and I’ve definitely been guilty of this throughout my career many times, is whenever you’re facing a problem, instead of thinking how you should solve the problem, you should think who you can get that already knows how to solve the problem.
And I think it’s a little bit like that, because yes, being on the ground in South Africa will have many advantages, but also being outside of South Africa, an opportunity to reach so many people and tell the South African story in a very authentic way, also has many, many advantages. I mean, I definitely, as I said, once my daughter finishes high school, I will spend more time in South Africa. But I don’t think, I think the opportunity to reach South Africans abroad and to reach other people who want to be able to help and build a country that works for everybody is a distinct advantage I want to make sure I capitalise on for the rest of my career.
Because there’s so many South Africans spread throughout the world who’ve been phenomenally successful that want to contribute. And I really want to build a community of South Africans that are willing to do the same work, willing to say, listen, let’s figure out how to build a country that works for everybody.
Jan Hugo: Excellent. And just maybe while we’re on that topic, do you have a few anecdotal success stories? Because I think it’s a wonderful initiative. Maybe share that with us.
Justinus Adriaanse: You know what? We plan our trip back to South Africa every year around the graduation at WeThinkCode_. And every single year, I’m absolutely blown away by the impact it has. I mean, I think it was a year or two ago. So as most graduation ceremonies, the class picks one student to stand in front and give a speech to represent them. And this girl got up, she was from Tembisa and both her parents died in a car accident when she was really small, like three or four years old.
And she sort of grew up with the community and extended families, but never really felt like she had all the opportunities in life. So she grew up and she was really smart, but basically had to look at, start working at the age of 16, 17, because she wanted to try and build a life for herself. So she literally got into a taxi one day on her way to an interview to become a waiter at a restaurant. And the taxi driver, knowing that she’s got high potential, said to her he’s going to, he refused basically to take her to the interview and he said he’s going to take her to the library instead. And she needs to take the WeThinkCode_ application test because he believes she’s smart enough to do it. And if she can get in there, she can change the trajectory of her life.
And she did it and she got in. And when she was making the speech at graduation, she had already worked three or four months as a junior developer at FNB. So here you’ve taken somebody and completely changed the trajectory of their life. And the irony is we have three, four hundred stories like that every year.
Out of our student body, more than 70% come from families who earn less than R70,000 a year. By the time they finish the course and they can start working, they earn R20,000 to R30,000 a month. So the, and I mean, obviously WeThinkCode_ has done an amazing job, but it’s just still a small drop in the ocean of what’s possible because the two fundamental principles we started on was one, is that natural aptitude and ability is normally distributed irrespective of your social class.
But the access to opportunities is completely asymmetrical. And if both of those assumptions are true, in a society like South Africa that’s as unequal as it is, and has the level of poverty that we have, it means that there are millions of people with exceptional talent that don’t have access to the things they need to make the best of it.
So I think a massive part of how we build a country that works for everybody is building systems that can find people with exceptional talent and without access and giving them access. Because when you do that, you not only change that individual, they become an example of what’s possible for the entire community. They become the inspiration and the support for their immediate family, and it just balloons out from there.
I mean, another great story is one year, about three or four years back, I was travelling back to South Africa for a WeThinkCode_ board meeting, and I arrive at border control and the agent stamping my passport has a WeThinkCode_ lanyard around her neck. I said, oh that’s interesting, where did you get that? And immediately her face lights up and she starts talking about her brother that got into this amazing academy, how it changed his life, how it changed her life, how it changed the life, the entire context of her family.
And we have millions of opportunities like that in South Africa. We can do so much more to find people with exceptional talent and just give them access. It’s such low-hanging fruit that will dramatically change the landscape of the country. And I believe that’s the single most important step we can take to building a country that works for everybody.
Jan Hugo: Wow, I’m sitting here with goosebumps, I must say. That’s just amazing. Added to that, did you battle with government? Are they supportive? Are you having success on that front as well?
Justinus Adriaanse: We are having lots of success. One of the interesting things that when we started, we had this long debate about whether we want to start it as an NGO or whether we want to start it as a business. And eventually we sort of made a compromise and said we’re going to start it within an NGO legal structure, but we’re going to try and run it as a business.
Initially, for the first two or three years, almost exclusively all the money we got to do it was from corporate South Africa paying to sponsor students. But then over time, as it started to build momentum, we got quite a few grants from international foundations, and we started working with semi-state and state organisations. So we’ve rolled out in TVET colleges over the course of the last two years, and it’s been tremendously successful.
It was a mix of support from the TVET colleges, support from government and support from international foundations. So that has gone really well and I think for us a big thing that we think can help in the next five to ten years to even increase our numbers potentially by ten times is by working more with government and finding ways to do it. But I think the lesson for me there was, yes, ultimately in the long run to have massive impact, you have to have some cooperation with government because they just have a much better distribution centre and obviously lots of capital. But you don’t have to wait for that to start.
We did a lot, we showed the results, we showed the pilot, we showed how it worked, we did a lot of things that already created momentum and then it becomes easier to get government support and to increase them.
Jan Hugo: Excellent. You’re also very passionate and we’ll get to the business side. I really want to just touch on this. You know, you’ve got rugby, it’s a big thing for you and you’ve got this rugby vision and rugby project on the mind. I heard you talking about a visit to Siya Kolisi’s village. Maybe you want to just talk to us about your rugby project and that.
Justinus Adriaanse: Well, where do I start? I think what happened is I underestimated Rassie. I didn’t think we had a hope in hell to win the 2019 World Cup. So I was going into the World Cup a little bit despondent. For the first time in a long time I felt like we had no chance. And every game they played and every progress they made I got more and more excited. And then eventually when we thumped England in the final, it felt like a bit of a world opened up to me and specifically around Siya and a lot of the players who come from the Eastern Cape and from challenging circumstances.
So I went down this rabbit hole after the 2019 World Cup where I just couldn’t read enough and couldn’t find enough and watch enough videos about Siya and Bongi and Makazole Mapimpi and Lukhanyo Am. Because growing up in Pretoria, rugby was always a, like especially, I mean in the 80s and 90s, rugby was this white Afrikaans sport. And then we won the World Cup in 2019 and this whole new world started opening up for me. And I started feeling this urge that I wanted to do something but I didn’t know what.
Fast forward four years and I hadn’t done anything by that stage but we wanted to go to the World Cup. And I mean I don’t know how long you’ve lived abroad. Living abroad and trying to buy tickets to the World Cup is a very challenging process. We tried a few times to buy on the Rugby World Cup website and we would always be in the queue and by the time we got to the front of the queue the tickets would be sold out.
And at some point I figured out how to circumvent the queue, let’s say it that way. And we managed to get some tickets for the South African pool games and the quarterfinal against France. But then in 2023 leading up to the World Cup, we had some business challenges that made it very hard for us to attend. So we ended up deciding to sell the tickets we had and not go. But some friends of ours from South Africa ended up going. And after that game against France, which was probably one of the best games ever, we were doing a video call with them after the game while they were still in the stadium and I just felt this overwhelming sense that I had to get to Paris no matter what.
So we went online and a bunch of the French people who obviously had tickets for the semi-final decided to sell after France lost. So we managed to get four tickets to the semi-final. So the Friday we jumped on a plane, all four of us, we flew to Paris, attended the semi-final which was the most nerve-wracking game I think I’ve ever been at, even more than the final. But we ended up winning. My wife and daughter had to fly back so they flew back on the Saturday morning. And I just said to my wife I’m going to stay here, I don’t have a ticket for the final but I’m going to just stay in France and figure out how to try and get a ticket to the final.
So my son and myself stayed. We went to visit another friend in the South of France, Tiaan Kotze, ex-rugby player as well. A fantastic story we met, but I won’t bore you with that now. But we went and stayed with him in the South of France, and we started watching all the games. We watched the ’95 final, we watched the 2007 final, we watched the 2019 semi-final, the 2019 final. And then also in that week between, we watched all those games.
And then I managed to actually get two tickets so my son and myself were at the final in 2023. And about three hours after the game, after eventually the South African supporters started leaving the stadium, we were on the train back to the hotel and the train was full of South African supporters. And I started talking to the people around me and I realised that most of us were South African expats living somewhere else in the world. Most of us or many of us had decided in the last week or ten days that we really had to come to Paris. And most of us ended up spending way more money on it than we probably rationally should have.
But then I said to myself, if that is true and it’s true that for all of us today and the three other times we won the World Cup were some of the most special times and experiences we’ve ever had, what would we be willing to do to recreate this five more times before we die? So the question I started asking myself is, what will it take to win five of the next ten World Cups? And I didn’t know what the answer was. So I started reading books. I read Siya’s book, I read Rassie’s book, I started finding out whatever I can about the rugby and what it would take.
And so one day I decided I’m going to jump on a plane. And I flew to Port Elizabeth. I watched Queen’s College play Grey High School in PE. And then I drove back to Queen’s Town with somebody from SA Rugby. And the next morning, the Sunday morning, he says to me, I want to just drive to Stutterheim, which is about an hour outside of Komani in the Eastern Cape, where the Border team will be practising, the broader Craven Week team will be practising.
So we drove there and Stutterheim is an exceptionally small town with a cafe, school and a few houses and a big relative township on the outskirts of town. And as we approach Stutterheim, you can see the township on your left and between the township and the road there’s this rugby field.
Nick, the guy I’m with, says to me, is it okay if after the Craven Week practice we just stop at this rugby field? Because I want to make this book when I retire of all the different rugby fields across South Africa that I’ve been to. I said, yeah, no problem. So we go to the practice, we meet a few people there, and we turn around, initially we forget, but we turn around and so we’re driving towards this rugby field. And this is 11 o’clock on a Sunday morning.
And there’s this big concrete wall so you can’t see what’s going on on the field. And as we come around the corner and the field opens up to us, there’s this game taking place. And it literally feels like I’m driving into Siya Kolisi’s book where he tells the story of how as a 12-year-old he was playing with 40-year-old men in bare feet on a Sunday morning in these leagues.
And here I am in a random small town in the Eastern Cape on a Sunday morning and there’s a game taking place. So we stop and we start talking to the people around the field. And now they say this township, which probably has 3,000 people who live there, has got 13 rugby clubs. Today on this field, there’s going to be six games. Yeah, there’s my favourite team, the Bombers or whatever. I can’t remember what they were called.
But it just showed me that rugby is so ingrained in that society and that culture in the Eastern Cape that if we can give every 12-year-old boy or girl, every 12-year-old kid the same opportunities we had as a white Afrikaans boy growing up in Pretoria in the 1980s, we can build a pipeline of talent that would make five of the next ten World Cups just about a foregone conclusion.
So it’s again that idea of the talent is normally distributed, but the access and opportunity isn’t. So if we can figure out a way to bridge that gap in rugby, it’s just the proxy of doing it successfully. Because if we create the right rising tide where we create those opportunities for kids, then I think that everything will benefit. One out of 10,000 or one out of a million will become a professional rugby player, but the other people will also get access to the opportunities they need to make the most of whatever their talents are.
Jan Hugo: That sounds absolutely amazing. It’s amazing as you say how rugby has brought the country together and if we can continue doing that it’ll just get better, absolutely. Just moving on a little bit. A lot of South Africans emigrate with jobs and careers when they get there. So that’s maybe slightly easier. So as an entrepreneur it was a little bit different. And what do you think is the biggest misconception of South Africans who want to start a business in a foreign country?
Justinus Adriaanse: Biggest misconception. I think for me the biggest challenge was that it’s really like completely starting over, even worse than starting over at 21 when you finish university, because at least when you start at 21 in South Africa and you’ve been to school and university in South Africa, you know hundreds, potentially thousands of people in that space.
Yeah, I got to Canada at 37 and I had no contacts. I didn’t know a soul. I wanted to start a new business, but I didn’t have anything. So I think for me, that was the biggest unexpected challenge was that you go to a new country without your network. I mean, now and today, even when we moved, there was already WhatsApp. So I could have done a lot more to start building my network even before I left South Africa and I probably would. If I had to do it again, I would work much harder at that.
EO was an absolute lifeline and helped me to connect to people relatively quickly. But I think if I had to do it again, I would accelerate that dramatically and I would work much harder while still in South Africa to build my network in Canada even before I got here.
Jan Hugo: Okay. I mean, that network is amazing because if I think back working in banking and so on, it wasn’t what you knew. It was who you knew. And arriving there without that and starting a business with red tape. So is that what the Lekker Network is about? Because it just looks like they’re doing amazing work and I’ll be interviewing Nick next week. That is, it just seems to me if I look at what’s going on in the Lekker Network that it is an amazing facilitation in a way.
Justinus Adriaanse: Yeah, I mean, for me, in starting the podcast and working on this rugby project, it’s been the most unbelievable blessing ever. I mean, Nick has introduced me to so many amazing people. So I think the Lekker Network is part of the answer to that question. So it’s building better community and networks for South Africans across the world. And I think that if I had that when we came, it would have definitely already helped.
But I don’t think that just connecting to other South Africans will ever fully solve that problem for you because you’re obviously in a different country. There’s a lot of things you need to learn and a lot of people you need to connect to be able to be successful. So it’s definitely part of solution, but I don’t think it’ll ever be the full solution to that challenge.
Jan Hugo: Yeah, and you’ve got to go out. I always say that, you know, in the context of arriving in a new country, just as a family, you can’t sit on your laurels and wait for people to come to you. It’s not going to happen because you have a funny accent. You’ve got to put yourself out there. And that’s hard. It’s hard. You have to push the boundaries. You have to push your comfort zone. You have to do, yeah, even more than you would without immigrating. And I mean, in that sense, as an entrepreneur, one of the biggest things you probably need is perseverance because you can’t let a disappointment put you on the back foot.
Justinus Adriaanse: No, I agree. I think, you know, I mean, what’s interesting though is the unexpected things you learn. So I would probably say the other big challenge is you don’t know what you don’t know. So you show up here and you expect it to be like, great example I use sometimes is I started my first business in South Africa in 1999. I left in 2015 permanently to Canada and I had never had a business or a personal chequebook in my life. And then I land here and everybody wants a cheque for payment and wants to give you a cheque for payment. So it’s like, what do you mean a cheque? No, but you can mail us a cheque. No, I’m not going to do it. Why would I get a chequebook? It’s 2015. I haven’t had a chequebook ever in 20 years in South Africa.
You don’t know what you don’t know and I mean there’s many little anecdotes like that of things happening where you have to be adaptable and you have to solve things while facing it immediately because it’s just completely different than what you’re used to.
Jan Hugo: Yeah, absolutely. One of your guests on your podcast the other day talked about the perception of people remaining in South Africa about people who leave or emigrate. I often find it quite scathing about it. You have strong views on that.
Justinus Adriaanse: Yeah, I think we talk about this and one of the reasons I wanted, so I don’t think you can ever change somebody’s mind on any significant topic by confronting them and trying to convince them. I think anybody who has what I call a revelation about something, it takes time and it builds over time and it takes a million different pieces of connection to eventually change your mind.
So a big thing that I’d like to achieve with our podcast is to both change the perception of South Africans abroad about South Africa and change the perception of South Africans abroad in the mind of South Africans. Because I mean, obviously in the Afrikaans culture, for a very long time, as a result of how, I mean, starting with the Groot Trek in 1838 in Cape Town, deserters of people who’ve left the Crawl has always been sort of seen as deserters. And I don’t think that is applicable anymore.
I think we live in a different world now, obviously, than 1838. We live in a world where you can be a global citizen and be a South African, live anywhere and really contribute back to the country in a meaningful way and try and, I’m not seeking confrontation on the topic. I just want to paint the context of how many South Africans there are all over the world who do a lot to make South Africa better. And I think if we have the right conversations, people will start to realise it’s not a black and white issue but that there’s a million shades of grey in between and that there’s many people all over the world who are just as South African as they are in Pretoria or Cape Town or Durban or wherever they might find themselves and that they contribute towards building a country that works for everybody.
Jan Hugo: Yeah, and that goes with that slogan that says, you know, South Africans are the country’s best export. A lot of people who leave are exceptional people and have exceptional talents. But we will always remain South African. You can’t take that out of us, you know. And I think that is so important to remember. And people often, there’s this lady that I interviewed in Australia. She wrote an article in 2015 in BizNews where people were also slagging South Africans who emigrated. And she said, why? I’m still a South African. Why am I not allowed to comment on what happens in South Africa? Why do you hold that against me? And I think that’s very, very valid.
Justinus Adriaanse: But I also understand the other side of the argument, right? I grew up in a house where I would say my dad’s sentiment was very much like that. I mean, I can remember him often saying that if you leave South Africa, you don’t have a say about the things that happen. So again, it’s just like, let me give you this example.
So I grew up in Pretoria in the 1980s in an apartheid system that was absolutely despicable, but it was designed to give me everything I needed to be successful in life. And it did that very, very well. And with that system came this dogma and propaganda of superiority that was reinforced by the reality I lived in. The dogma said we were more intelligent, we were more hardworking, we were more exceptional, and everything around me, I could see the evidence of that being true.
What I didn’t realise at the time is the reason it felt like it was true is because there was a completely disproportionate amount of resources being spent in making it true for a small subset of the society. And if the resources were equally spread, the results in those things would be equal. So while you’re living inside that system it’s very hard to break out of it.
So in the context of South Africans who left as desertion, all of the evidence and everything around people seem to confirm that. What we need to do is tell the story that shows the contrary point of view. And if we tell it deliberately and consistently for a long period of time and people can hear it and they can see the results of that, I think that sentiment will change and we will become one nation spread throughout the world instead of limited by the boundaries of the country.
Jan Hugo: I think that’s so true. I don’t know how many Aussies you’ve got living in Canada, but I think lots. If you think about the Aussies, they’re not ashamed to be Australian. They leave because it’s an opportunity, and I think we should be the same. Whereas, you know, sometimes they make you feel like, as you say, you’re a deserter, you’ve packed up and left and it’s wrong. One more point, if you don’t mind.
Justinus Adriaanse: No, not at all. I think the key for me is I’m not offended by that. When people talk like that I feel compassion for their point of view and I understand that what they’re saying is heavily influenced by their own biases of the context within their lives and their own personal struggles because I find often people that are most vocal about it are people who would like to leave but feel trapped.
And that’s their issue they’re carrying. It’s got nothing to do with me. I feel very comfortable with the choices I’ve made. I feel comfortable with being a South African abroad. And I feel comfortable about being vocal with it. I want to just tell the stories that can show the other side of the coin. And I don’t get upset when people feel differently. That’s their right. And they must feel the way they do. And if I can tell the stories in the right way, I think many of them will change their point of view.
Jan Hugo: That is so true. I think the one thing that I’ve learned in these 40-plus episodes is that everyone has a reason why they leave or why they go back and who am I to judge because I’ve never lived in their shoes. And you know, whatever their reasons may be, it’s their choice and they must live with it. What I’m trying to do through these stories is make it easier for people maybe to see themselves, their own stories and know that there are other people going through the same issues.
One of the things that has come up in recent discussions was the parents that stay behind. I’m fascinated by that and I interviewed a psychologist who solely deals with parents who stay behind. And you know, the guilt that kids feel, the parents, it’s a minefield. It’s very, very tough to emigrate. So I think the more we can help people to understand and go on the journey the better it is.
Okay, another question. I know you’re an avid reader. I think you said on a podcast, how many books you read? That’s a lot. But if you think about the immigration journey, is there a book that you would say everyone should read this before you embark on this?
Justinus Adriaanse: Wow, I’ve never thought about it and I don’t think I’ve ever read a book on immigration whatsoever. I was either cocky or ignorant enough not to realise how hard it would be when I immigrated, so I didn’t read on it. Maybe on decision-making, you know, because this is a big decision, probably one of the biggest decisions you make in your life. I would say, let me look this up quickly.
What I found interesting and what I’ve been reading a lot about in the last six months is how people change their minds and the sort of logic behind that. So I would say one of the great books I read, which was fascinating is How Minds Change by David McRaney. And then there was one other one, Crucial Conversations, was amazing. And I think that Crucial Conversations, it’s definitely one that helped me make that mind shift from you’re never going to change anybody’s mind by trying to have a confrontational conversation about it.
You have to be able to have the crucial conversations, but the way you act and the way you manage your emotion and the way you create the context, and you have to give them the space to both articulate their thoughts and the space to take in over time what you’ve said and hopefully help them make a better decision or a different decision. It’s not necessarily better, but it’s really about the ability to have those conversations. So those two books have been fantastic.
Jan Hugo: Also, that’s fantastic. Now, if you think back to your own journey, is there, you said, you know, maybe the networking side, is there something else you know now that you wish you knew then in 2015, ten years ago when you left?
Justinus Adriaanse: I’m going to try and answer it but slightly differently. I think if I look back now on the last ten years, one of the things I feel very grateful for is to have been involved and seen a country from the inside that does really work for everybody. I mean, every country has its challenges. Canada included. But in comparison to the challenges we face in South Africa, it is actually a country that works for everybody. Most people have the access they need to make the most of their talents if they choose to do so. And I think I feel very blessed to have been able to see that from the inside. And that’s probably one of my biggest motivations to know that if we can do that in South Africa, it will be a transformational process. So it’s been amazing. Like the healthcare system, obviously it has its challenges as well. But it does more for more people more consistently than I would have ever imagined from the outside.
Jan Hugo: If you have to advise a young guy now, a guy from Willgers, he’s finished matric, he’s finished varsity and he comes in and says, what should I do? Should I stay? Should I go? Should I explore? What would you advise him?
Justinus Adriaanse: To answer that, and the previous question a little bit, I think one of the things on decision-making that worked really well for us is not trying to make a decision that’s necessarily forever. To say, okay, the plan is to go for five years, do X, Y and Z, and then we can reassess. If we want to come back, if we want to go, then we can change our mind. We don’t have to make a decision now that it’s a lifelong commitment. It doesn’t need to be a marriage or having a child.
You can say, listen, I want to go and explore the world. I want to seek opportunity. I want to go to Europe or Australia or New Zealand or the US or Canada or wherever you want to go. And then go and do it, learn something and you can always come back. In five years’ time, it might make more sense to come back. What I do find is young people that have gone, many of them then really consider going back once they have children, especially small toddlers. And then on the flip side, many people when their kids are in primary school or approaching high school in South Africa, then decide that’s the time they want to immigrate. And there’s no right or wrong answer and it doesn’t have to be a forever commitment. You can make a decision on what’s best for you now, go and explore, go and try something and then change your mind in five years’ time. There’s no problem with that.
What I do think though, if I’m speaking specifically to myself in 1996 or if I was in matric at Willgers now, I do think there’s an insane opportunity that we don’t talk about enough in South Africa. You have these top 50 schools in the States that are all needs-based assessment in terms of how much it’ll cost you to attend. So if you do well enough in school, if you have four, five, six distinctions in South Africa in matric, you could probably get into one of the top 50 schools in the US and depending on your family circumstances, pay nothing for that.
These schools will pay your tuition, they will pay your accommodation, they will pay your food, they will pay your travel home and back. They will pay everything because their approach to accepting students is we are competing for the best talent in the world. We want to make sure we get the smartest, most hardworking people and the finances cannot be a barrier. These schools have billions of dollars in endowments and they literally will pay for everything.
Just because you’re in South Africa and you don’t have money to come study in the United States, if you work hard enough and you get good enough results and you can show on an SAT test that you can do well, you can get an entire college degree without spending money, assuming you come from a context that can’t afford it. So they assess your family’s financial situation. And if you earn less than $100,000 a year, your family is basically free. If you earn between $100,000 and $250,000 a year, you pay somewhere between 10% to 90% depending on your circumstances.
If I was in matric right now and academically strong, I would definitely consider it. Even if you just come, do that for four years, get your degree and then go back to South Africa, you will build a network and gain experience that is irreplaceable.
Jan Hugo: Wow, that is great advice. I didn’t know that, so that’s fantastic for people to know that that possibility is there. Wow, Justinus, we’ve been talking for an hour and it’s just what a journey. I mean I just really appreciate you sharing with us and all that wisdom and I think what you’re doing, I must check behind you maybe there’s wings there because I think it’s angelic, the stuff that you do in South Africa. It really is amazing. If all South Africans could feel that way about the country, be that passionate, and just make a difference.
I always think about that starfish organisation in South Africa where you know the story where the guy threw back one and he said, you know, if I make a difference to one, it’s okay. And I think that’s kind of the way we should look at life is to make a difference. We’ve got so few days on earth. So we may as well just make the best of it. And I really just want to say thank you so much. Thank you for making the time. And yeah, it’s just been an amazing discussion. If people want to, obviously your podcast is on all the platforms and it’s called Winning the Away Game. Is that right?
Justinus Adriaanse: Yeah, that’s Winning the Away Game. You can find it on all the platforms. Personally, I’m most active on LinkedIn, although I’m on some of the other social media. I just, I want to add one thing to what you said there. And thank you very much for the encouragement and compliment. I really appreciate it. But I don’t think people should see doing a lot as the barrier. What’s more, the most important thing is action and consistency.
Even if you just do whatever within your sphere of influence and means and do it consistently, you will have an impact. If it means you can give R100 a year to a charity in South Africa that you feel comfortable with, then do that. If it means R100 a year to support your family or whatever you can do, whatever’s within your realm of possibility, just start doing it and do it consistently and you will see the impact. It is amazing what consistency and action will do.
Jan Hugo: Awesome. That is fantastic advice. Well, thanks again. I think we should put a Nike logo on that and just say just do it.
Justinus Adriaanse: I like it. Yes, over here. Just do it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think I’ve got one underneath here.
Jan Hugo: So, yeah, thanks so much, Justinus. I really enjoyed that. It was great to have you on the podcast.
Justinus Adriaanse: Same here. Thanks for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.
Jan Hugo: If you enjoyed my discussion with Justinus and would like to hear more about experiences of South Africans who have left the country, why not subscribe on your favourite platform. And if you’d like to share your own story, contact us on jan@therelocatedsouthafrican.com. Until next time.
