Jan Hugo:

Welcome to The Relocated South African. Today I am joined by Jannie and Karen Kotze, a South African couple based in Perth, Australia. Jannie is a lawyer and Karen is also a lawyer, but a registered migration consultant. Together they have spent years helping people navigate the complex process of moving to Australia. Before helping others make the move, they had to go through the journey themselves.

I thought we would chat about the journey in two sections: the personal part and then the professional part. So welcome, Jannie and Karen.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Thank you, Jan. We just want to tell all of you that we know Jan from Randburg, in South Africa.

Jan Hugo:

Well, and you still agreed to come on the podcast. So that is a positive sign. Maybe just for the listeners who do not know you like I do, where did you guys study, grow up, and start your careers?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

I will start. I was born in Johannesburg, actually in Randburg. Primary school at Boskop Primary School, and then Randburg High School thereafter. I elected not to go to the army immediately, so I headed down to the University of the Orange Free State, where I completed my training and degrees on the legal side. After qualifying, I headed back to Johannesburg and got a job as a prosecutor. And that is where I met Karen.

I grew up in Kempton Park. Then I went to Tukkies, the University of Pretoria, where I completed my BLC and LLB.

Jan Hugo:

And just family-wise, your kids were all born in South Africa?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Yes, we have a son and a daughter, and they both immigrated with us to Australia. They were both adults at that time. Nika actually migrated prior to us. She started the process, coming over to Australia at the end of year 11, and then moved through to year 12 and eventually into university. Our son, Dejan, completed his BSc degree at the University of Johannesburg before he moved here.

Both of them then went on to study further. Dejan, although he had completed a BSc at UJ, his pathway also led him to law. He then studied law here. Nika started with law, criminology and psychology, then teaching, and is now a psychologist.

So we are now three of the family in law and one psychologist, all living in Perth.

Jan Hugo:

Wow, all in Perth. So when did the conversation about leaving first start?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

We went through a series of turmoil in South Africa, as you can imagine, with a few crime incidents. And eventually it was actually Jannie who really decided to start the process, even though he was not directly affected by the crime in the same way that my children and I were. But he was the instigator. We actually started the process a long time before we migrated. We migrated at the very end, just before our visas expired. We had held those visas for five years.

Jan Hugo:

Wow.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

As Jannie mentioned, it was Nika who went over in the last period of her grade 11. She was supposed to go as an exchange student to America as part of a Randburg High School group. That fell through, and she then contacted my sister-in-law, who is a teacher in Australia, and enquired about whether they had an exchange programme. The school did not have one, but they said they would create one for her, provided she could be in Australia. That was a Wednesday, and she had to be there by Monday, as it was the last intake for grade 11s to move through to year 12.

And it was actually Nika, my daughter, who created the path. She effectively forced us to come to Australia and to activate our visas so that we could retain them on a permanent basis. That was in 2010.

Jan Hugo:

So what you are saying is you had already applied in 2005?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Correct. In 2005 we had our visas, and they were expiring in 2010.

Jan Hugo:

That is amazing. That is quite a long process. In the interim, you had to carry on with your careers and work and live normally. It is kind of like having insurance, knowing that you can take it up, but never really intending to until your daughter pushed you. Is that a fair assumption?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Insurance is actually the right word. My two brothers still live in South Africa. When I told them that we had applied and been granted a visa, they asked why. I will get back to the crime that was actually on the front page of the newspaper, which started and triggered the process.

At that stage I said to them, well, it is insurance. I have got an insurance policy, but it is based in my passport. At that stage it was not electronic. You got a sticker in your passport. So I said, I have got an insurance policy and it is based in my passport. That is the terminology we used.

A group called the Rolex Squad targeted people. I did not have a Rolex, but what they did was follow people to their homes for jewellery. They followed Karen home, with Nika in the car as well, and they forced the ring from her finger. That was a major incident, and that was part of kickstarting the journey.

Jan Hugo:

It is so interesting. I actually published something on LinkedIn just yesterday about conversations with people in Australia specifically, and the safety aspect is just number one as a reason why people are leaving. Thinking back to 2006, we had a similar incident. We had moved from Randburg to River Club at that time, and there was the Santa Knife Gang that came into our house. It was incredibly traumatic. The reasons why people leave may be different, but once you have had an experience like that, it sticks with you. And when you live without that fear, you realise what the safety aspect is really all about.

Were your children quite okay with the idea of leaving?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

They were all on board, actually. Nika was happier than us. Everything fell into place. When we started the process, we did not really know what we were doing. But looking back, it was meant to be. We came into contact with a migration agent who was also a lawyer, and he started the process. We just followed everything through, and when the time came and Nika said she wanted to go to Australia, everything was already in place.

But if one were to write a book on how not to do the migration process, we would be the authors. Nika wanted to go, as Karen explained, and it was really a Wednesday. Karen was online with the school, and I went to the principal at Randburg High School and asked whether it would be all right, given that it was around the time of the standard nine record exams. He said it was fine. Karen confirmed Nika could go, but she had to be there on Monday and had to complete a full term at the school. That Saturday evening, Nika flew out of Johannesburg alone, landed in Perth, and completed the end of year 11. Then she did not want to come back. She came back for a visit and said she was going to finish year 12 there. So we were somewhat forced into it.

And so, back to the book. We eventually migrated: three people with three suitcases, boarding the plane at the beginning of January so that Nika could start year 12. We rented accommodation here, and our house in Randburg stood empty for two years, lights on, with the household staff there, but the cat not in the house.

Then Dejan’s story: I picked him up at the airport after he had finalised his degree at UJ. He and his girlfriend flew over, I think it was May that year. When I picked them up, I asked him when his return flight was. He looked at me and said, ‘Dad, return flight? I am not going back.’ And then we all stayed. That is our story.

Jan Hugo:

That is amazing. Was Perth the destination because of your daughter, or had you long before decided that Perth was the place?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

I have a brother who has lived here in Perth for more than 25 years, and my sister-in-law was already at the school. So it was the most logical place for a soft landing. At that time, Jannie was still involved with his company, Resolution Health, and he flew back to South Africa about five or six times over three or four years. With the direct flights from Johannesburg to Perth, it was also a logical place to settle.

Jan Hugo:

And Resolution Health, what has happened to it?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Yes, that was sold. I had also taken a sabbatical from my practice as an advocate at that stage. I am not exactly sure what has happened to it thereafter. It was in the health insurance, life insurance, and short-term insurance space. I believe the short-term insurance was absorbed into Momentum or one of the larger groups.

Jan Hugo:

And when you made the call to get on the plane, how long was it between making that decision and actually boarding?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Because Nika had said she was not going back to South Africa to finish year 12, it forced me to arrange accommodation and to settle in Perth with her. Jannie essentially just tagged along.

Jan Hugo:

Ha.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

The final decision: pack your bags, let us go, was made by Nika.

Jan Hugo:

And a technical question: you arrived in 2010. When did you become citizens?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

We became citizens in 2015. There is still a residency requirement, where you have to have lived in Australia for a certain period. At the time, I think it was four years. Nika became a citizen around 2013, prior to us. She had been here earlier. Then Karen, then Dejan. I managed to meet the residency requirement in 2015, Karen in 2014. My timeline was later because I had been travelling back to South Africa quite often and needed to build up my days here.

Jan Hugo:

Thinking back to when you arrived, obviously you had been to Australia often on visits. Was it harder than you expected? Were there things that surprised you when you were actually living there rather than just visiting?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Yes. I think what everyone discovers is that honeymoon period in migration, where everything is wonderful, and then reality kicks in and you realise it is not the same as you hoped. There are so many differences in culture, even though you think there are not. The way people live, the rules and regulations you are not used to, it is all a learning environment from the start. I would sum it up by saying: migration is not for the faint-hearted.

Jan Hugo:

Never. I always say that. And people always talk about the cost of living as a first shock, because people give up their pensions, sell their houses, and move abroad, and then suddenly realise just how expensive it is, especially if you are starting in rands and not yet earning in Australian dollars. Was that a similar experience for you?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

I can sum it up in one sentence: we should have immigrated so many years ago. If you start building your pension at a very late age, as happened with us, it is not ideal. You should migrate earlier rather than later. When we migrated, the rand was around R 5.40 to the Australian dollar. If we had made the move and transferred what we had two or three years earlier, it would have been around R 2.00 to R 3.00 to the dollar. We only transferred funds later when the rand was at R 10.00 to the dollar. So you end up with less than half your small amount of wealth. And Perth is one of the most expensive cities in the world. People must realise that it is not easy, especially if you migrate at a late stage.

Jan Hugo:

Yes, and there is also an age limit for immigrating. I spoke to a lady who made it just before she turned 45. She said that over 45 it would have been impossible. Is that correct?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

That is right. The migration rules change over the years. At the time we migrated, the age limit was 50. Around ten years ago, it changed to 45. It is possible to migrate after that age, but the chances of obtaining permanent residency are very limited. The Department of Immigration has also removed many visa categories that people would previously have qualified for, such as business visas. For many people who have businesses and have generated some wealth, those options are now gone. The visa pathway for people over 45 is very limited.

Jan Hugo:

Very interesting. And in terms of healthcare, South Africans are used to excellent quality private health through providers like Discovery. What is that like in Perth and in Australia generally?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Healthcare is government funded, and the social security system in Australia is excellent. Yes, we do pay significant taxes, but the money is spent well. If you are only on Medicare, you will be catered for in the same hospital as private health care patients. You will get the same surgeons, the same services. The only real difference is that with private health care, you jump the queue for elective surgery.

We do pay for private health care as well, but that is for specific reasons, including tax reasons. You do not really need it in the same way you would in South Africa. Interestingly, in the South African context, private hospital groups import the best technology and equipment. Here it is the other way around: the government spends heavily on new equipment and technology. So even if you are at a private hospital, for certain procedures they will transfer you to a government hospital for the newest scans or technology, and then bring you back. Healthcare spend is enormous, and it is excellent. I am not even sure what the equivalent of Discovery would cost in the Australian context. On the general practitioner side, many practices operate on bulk billing, where you simply show your Medicare card and walk out without paying a cent.

Jan Hugo:

That is so interesting. I have interviewed South Africans living in Canada, and the state of the health system there was described as appalling: very socialised, with terrible wait times. It is good to hear that Australia is well catered for. Just on cost of living: you mentioned that Perth is very expensive. Is that primarily about property?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Yes, and it is not just Perth: Sydney, and really the whole country. Property is unaffordable. I know of people moving back to Perth from Sydney because of property prices there. In comparison to South Africa, a block of land, which is just an average inland plot with no river or sea frontage, starts at about AUD 500,000.00. The median price in Perth, or Western Australia broadly, is currently over AUD 1,000,000.00 for a house. The median price for units is just over AUD 600,000.00. Property prices escalated dramatically after COVID. If you have a property worth R 10,000,000.00 in South Africa, it will buy you something below the median price here.

Jan Hugo:

And if you arrive and have to rent first, that is also very expensive?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

People pay weekly here. Average rentals for a family home are around AUD 1,000.00 per week for a typical three-bedroom, two-bathroom property. And it is becoming worse. There is a significant housing shortage, and migration is often cited as adding pressure to the rental market. Land here is also quite constrained: blocks are small and the city is dense.

Jan Hugo:

So the advice for someone wanting to move to Perth is to do your sums and your due diligence, and to know what you need to earn before you arrive.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Absolutely. And ideally, if they can, they should come and visit first. Do a look-and-see trip and investigate the prices before committing, because the costs can come as a real shock.

Jan Hugo:

Yes. And moving on to the migration consultancy side: if you had to rank the reasons why people immigrate, from safety, opportunity, education for children, lifestyle, and financial future, what ranks highest among the people you work with?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

From what I see, I think it is safety, and equally the children. Most of my clients say they are doing it for their children’s sake. So I would say it is safety for their children, fifty-fifty. The majority of my clients are South African migrants. I do get applications from the United Kingdom and some European countries as well, but the majority are South African.

Jan Hugo:

And one of the things that comes up in every conversation about immigration is the emotional cost: missing family, missing home. Do you think people underestimate that?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

I definitely do tell people that the honeymoon period goes away and the reality kicks in. But if you have made a decision to come, focus on that decision and on why you made it. The missing of people is part of it, and it is not going to go away. But if you keep focussing on the reasons why you started the migration process in the first instance, that should override the emotional side. You can always visit back, and people can come and visit you. You are not in a jail. You are free to go back and visit.

I would add a third component, and I think it is a particularly South African one. It is not exactly a cultural shock, but more of a working shock. In the South African context, we are all used to having people working for us: domestic staff, garden services. You land here and it is completely different. South Africans think they work hard. You must land here, then you start working. You do everything yourself. You do not have two domestic workers, one in the garden. You do not have three personal assistants. Saturday morning you do your own lawn, your own cars, all of it. I think that is a shock for a lot of people who think they work hard because they managed people back home. Here you need to get your hands dirty, and that is the reality.

Jan Hugo:

You have actually answered my next question, because I was going to ask about practising law in Australia versus South Africa. It is still law, but it is different.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Totally different. The principles are fairly similar, but you have to requalify here. The way judgments are delivered, for instance, is not the same. It is more of a collective approach. The rulings are generally very good. But you need to get into the mode. The language is also different. You think we all speak English here, but it takes a couple of years to get used to Australian expressions and acronyms.

Jan Hugo:

And from both your points of view as professionals working in immigration and law, my sense is that Australia is very regulated. Does that impact how you work? Because South Africans tend to look for a plan. “Boer maak ‘n plan,” as they say.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Do you really want me to answer that one?

Yes, with some exceptions, the rule is that it is very regulated. In the court system, everything is documented and regulated. There are no shortcuts. You need to get used to that. It is what it is. It is sometimes a bit of a nanny state, and I personally think it is slightly over-regulated, but it works for us. It works for the country and it works for the economy. So yes, it is something you need to get used to.

Jan Hugo:

And a question that always comes up: you were in Australia through COVID, and I think the way COVID was handled in South Africa is ultimately what pushed a lot of people to leave. What was your experience of COVID in Australia?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Especially from the migration side of it, where families simply could not visit. It was really hard, even in very traumatic circumstances, to get a visa granted. If someone had a family member on their deathbed, getting people here was incredibly difficult. Interstate movement was also very restricted. We dealt with cases where, for example, an elderly gentleman had gone back to South Africa to wrap up an estate, and his wife was here, and we simply could not get him back for months. That was a travesty.

There is a positive side, though. The COVID death statistics in Australia were extremely low. I do not think we reached 2,000 deaths nationally. Western Australia, in particular, had very few restrictions. There were a couple of short periods where masks were required and movement was limited, but it was brief. It was probably over-managed, but that is my personal view.

Jan Hugo:

Well, at least you could buy the essentials. But let us not go there. Just on the age question: Karen, is Australia still accessible, or has it become really difficult to move there now?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

It has become harder, yes. The Department of Immigration now focuses primarily on priority occupations, particularly those that can boost the economy, such as healthcare, construction, and engineering. Other professions find it very difficult to come in on the general skilled migration pathway, which is where someone migrates on their own skills without needing employer sponsorship. The department has also clamped down on immigration for various reasons, and the quotas issued for each visa category are becoming smaller. It is not the way it was ten years ago.

Teachers are still in demand, though. They remain a priority occupation, and I do a lot of teacher migration work. There are many South African teachers working in the Middle East, in countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia, who are very keen to come to Australia, because they cannot obtain permanent residency in the countries where they are currently working.

Jan Hugo:

Yes, because they can never become permanent residents there.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Correct. And the chances of getting an equivalent salary back in South Africa are essentially non-existent. Australia is one of the most sought-after destinations for them.

Jan Hugo:

So here is a slightly tricky question: who is the kind of person who should not move to Australia, or who will struggle when they get here?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

If you think you are better than everyone else and that you will come and change the world, stay where you are. If you think you want to establish a Boer Republic in Australia, and you do get people like that, stay where you are. But if you are hardworking, you want to establish yourself, you want a new life, and you are willing to adapt, then come. If you have got a chip on your shoulder, do not come. We are all equal here. Whether you are a blue-collar worker or a medical doctor or a lawyer, we are all equal. Getting back to basics and stepping away from South Africa’s distorted class structure is one of the best things about the move.

Jan Hugo:

And what you are saying is: do not come and try to build a little South Africa here. I think a lot of people fall into that trap. We certainly see it in Portugal with some of the English community. They come and live as if they are still in England. We will always be South African, we will always shout for the Springboks, but when you go and live as a guest in another country, you have to adapt and live as they do.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Absolutely, definitely.

Jan Hugo:

Now, if someone in South Africa says, ‘I am a teacher and I want to immigrate,’ and they contact you, what does the typical process look like?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

I do an initial assessment to determine which visa option would be the best fit. If someone is close to 45, the general migration option, which is points-based and involves waiting for an invitation from the department, needs careful consideration. I do the assessment, provide guidelines, and outline the costs, because cost is really crucial. It is a lot of money for people to migrate.

Where there is an employer sponsorship option, I would generally advise that route, because the employer can carry some of the costs, and certain costs are mandatory for the employer to cover. We then provide a processing timeline as well. It is not a quick process. If you go through general skilled migration, it can take up to two years from start to finish.

Jan Hugo:

And at what point do people have to pay?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

There are two major costs: the agent’s fees and the visa application fees, and there can be additional costs such as state nomination fees and skills assessment fees. Government fees are payable at the time of lodging the visa application or the skills assessment. There is no deferment on those. Agent fees depend on the individual agent, whether they charge a deposit or the full amount upfront. It is a very costly process.

Jan Hugo:

And the government fee: if the visa is refused, that money is gone?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Absolutely. It is not guaranteed that you will get a visa, and in most cases the fees are not refundable. There are limited refund circumstances in the employer sponsorship pathway if the nomination is not granted, but that is not the norm. If a general skilled migration visa is refused, the government fee is gone.

Jan Hugo:

And just for people listening for the first time and considering the move, what would that visa cost be in South African terms?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

It depends on the family composition, because a single applicant pays less than a family, but on average I would say approximately R 250,000.00 in total, covering agent and government fees. That does not include the container, the relocation costs, or anything else. Just the visa process. To give some context, the skills assessment alone for a trades applicant can cost approximately R 50,000.00. The overall visa fees typically fall in the range of AUD 15,000.00 to AUD 25,000.00.

Jan Hugo:

And that is why the commitment is so important. Once you decide to go, do not look over your shoulder.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

It will just confuse you. If you have a plan A, stick with plan A. Do not start making a plan B. That is how you should approach it.

Jan Hugo:

I cannot believe how time flies. Let us just cover one more thing: when you arrive in Australia, there are so many South African groups. What would you advise people when they get there?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

The natural process is that you want to go to a comfort zone, and that will probably mean joining or meeting other South Africans. But it sorts itself out quite quickly. It is a natural process that will eventually direct you to the group or community that suits you. My advice would be: go to the barbecue. Go to the South African events. But by the second braai you will know whether that particular group is your cup of tea or not.

The difficulty is that back in South Africa, you built your circle of friends around the rugby field, through your children’s activities, and so on. You lose all of that when you emigrate, and you have to reestablish it without that existing structure. That is especially difficult if you migrate at a later age.

There are many South African Facebook pages and groups for Australia. A good one to start with is Aussiekaners. If you want to meet people and do not know where to start, jump on those pages. People will assist you. But you do need to put yourself out there. When we landed, I had coffee with every single person I could get hold of, just to grow my network. In my work as a lawyer, knowing people is everything.

Jan Hugo:

Absolutely. And if people of your age when you left are considering it today, your advice would be to consider it earlier rather than later?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Yes, definitely.

Jan Hugo:

And your children, they are fully Australian now? They would not go back?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Never. My daughter is married to an Australian, also an ex-South African but well established here for many years. No, they will not go back. There is no question about it.

Jan Hugo:

And if there is anything you could ship today from South Africa that you really miss, what would it be?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

You are asking the wrong couple. I know a lot of people miss biltong and all sorts of things, but I am not like that. If you want Mrs. Ball’s chutney, you can buy it here. If you want biltong, there are plenty of shops. There is actually nothing that you cannot buy here. I personally cannot understand why you would need a specific brand of mayonnaise from back home. Go and buy the Australian mayonnaise. It is just as good.

I do want to tell one short story about shipping things, though. Because we did not fully commit to the move at the beginning, all our goods went into storage for ten years. We eventually shipped two forty-foot containers to Australia, and when they arrived, they went into storage again because I was not going to unpack everything into a rental house until we owned a property. Ten years later, when we unpacked those two containers, I think 90 per cent of the contents were thrown away. We paid storage fees for ten years, shipped everything over, and threw most of it away here. That was absolutely horrendous. That is why we say: if you want a prime example of how not to migrate, we are it.

Jan Hugo:

We are exactly the same. We took a forty-foot container to France and ended up donating the contents to a young South African couple, because the furniture simply did not fit. I always joke and say there are things I do not miss from South Africa, like car guards and the guard dogs, but I would not mind having our cleaning lady Liena every week. Yesterday my wife and I were hanging the washing outside and she said, ‘I bet you did not think you would be doing this ten years ago.’ I said, you are absolutely right. But as Jannie says, we are all equal here, and it is a small sacrifice to make. It actually makes you a better person.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Welcome to the rest of the world.

Jan Hugo:

Thank you both so much. If people want to contact you about migration, we will put the details in the show notes. What is the best way for people to reach you?

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

They can email me at karen@kotzelaw.com.au. I am happy to provide initial guidelines, which are generally free of charge. It is not a comprehensive assessment, just an indication of whether someone is eligible. If they are not, I will tell them very frankly and honestly that there is no viable pathway at this time.

Jan Hugo:

Excellent. We will include all the details in the show notes for this episode. You can also visit kotzelaw.com.au. Thank you both so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And as always, if this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might want or need to hear it. You can find more episodes of The Relocated South African wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening, and I will see you next time.

Jannie & Karen Kotze:

Thank you, Jan. It was lovely to see you again.

This transcript was produced with the assistance of AI and checked for accuracy.